From National Captain to Activist: Using Influence to Level The Playing Field with Craig Foster
Craig Foster - Former Australian National Soccer Captain, Humanitarian and Activist, Adjunct Professor, Sport & Social Responsibility
Craig Foster was the 419th Australian football international (Socceroo) and 40th Captain, Oceania Player of the Year and Australian Team of the Century nominee with decades of experience in broadcasting, government and diplomacy and social justice. Formerly a Director of COALAR (DFAT) and currently the Australian Multicultural Council (Dept Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs) played various sports diplomacy roles including Chef de Mission NSW Govt to Brazil and bilateral meetings, MERCOSUR. Heavily involved in indigenous football and rights, refugee children and refugee rights and homelessness, through sport programs.
Craig Foster is also Ambassador for Amnesty, Australia Committee Human Rights Watch, UNSW Australian Human Rights Institute. Three Logies as part of the SBS FIFA World Cup team, named an Australian Financial Review (AFR) BOSS True Leader 2019 for the #SaveHakeem campaign, ChangeMaker 2019 by Sydney Morning Herald, Australian Human Rights Commission Human Rights Medal Finalist, author and columnist, Bachelor of Laws, Masters in International Sport Management. Life Member, former CEO and Chair of Professional Footballers Australia (PFA). Named one of Australia’s Best Dressed Men, though heavily disputes this dubious honour.
Every now and then, we have one of those special conversations that we can tell at the time will have a profound life-changing impact. They shift how we see that person, how we see ourselves and our perspective on the world at large. This is one of those pivotal conversations for us– today, we are speaking to Craig Foster. Former captain of the Australian Men’s national soccer team, the Socceroos, with an impressive ongoing career in sports broadcast, Craig holds a masters in sports and a law degree, and is now well known for his incredible work as a human rights and social justice advocate and an antiracism activist.
He’s won numerous awards and accolades but that’s not really what Craig is about – and its certainly not what motivates him.
In this conversation Craig shares about his lessons from professional sports, his journey to becoming a leading human rights activist, where morality fits into the discussion around leadership and humanitarian issues – and the responsibility those of us with privilege have to level the playing field for everyone.
To learn more about Craig Foster here:
Find Craig Foster’s Humanitarian and Activism work, including his documentaries here.
Craig Foster on LinkedIn
For accessible access access the full conversation transcript below. Here’s a sneak peak at one of our favourite moments from the conversation:
Episode Transcript:
Spk0 Sally Clarke Spk1 Sally Clarke Spk2 Craig Foster
[00:00:09] spk_0: Welcome to, we are human leaders. I'm Sally Clark. Every now and then. I have one of those unique conversations that I can tell at the time will have a profound life changing impact, a conversation that shifts how I see that person, how I see myself and even my perspective on the world at large. This is one of those pivotal conversations for me and my co-host Alexis Sana. Today, we're speaking to Craig Foster, former captain of the Australian men's national soccer team, the socceroos with an impressive ongoing career in sports broadcast. Craig holds a masters in sports and a law degree and is now well known for his incredible work as a human rights and social justice advocate and an anti racism activist. He's won numerous awards and accolades, but that's not really what Craig is about and it's certainly not what motivates him in this conversation. Craig shares about his lessons from professional sports, his journey to becoming a leading human rights activist where morality fits into the discussion around leadership and humanitarian issues and the responsibility those of us with privilege have to level the playing field for everyone. Let's delve in.
[00:01:17] spk_1: Welcome to we are human leaders. Craig. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here with us today. And before we dive into the incredibly important work that you're doing now, we'd love to take a moment to get to know you more. So, could you tell us a little bit about your back story? Craig?
[00:01:31] spk_2: Oh, well, I spend more time speaking about other groups and affected communities and refugees and others than myself. But if I keep it really short, I'd say I used to play a bit of football, meaning soccer. Uh for those who aren't afraid with the uh World game and I have been in broadcast for the last 20 or so years.
[00:01:50] spk_0: And how did you get into football? Soccer? Craig, what was that sort of journey for you? Is that something you started fairly early as a young one?
[00:01:57] spk_2: Yeah. So I come from Lismore, which is quite a small regional country area in the north of New South Wales, in Australia and in regional areas all around Australia. Football, soccer is was and probably still is the most popular sport for both females and males. And therefore growing up, it was a big focus for almost every kid in that area. And of course, as in my early teens, you know, as you start to matriculate onto, you know, graduate into representative teams and others in terms of regional state and then national that just kind of goes on to, you know, ultimately become a professional career.
[00:02:36] spk_0: Amazing. And, you know, you have captained the Australian national soccer team. Let's roll with soccer, I think for the context of, of a conversation today, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that journey for you. Craig, because that doesn't happen, I imagine by accident that takes a lot of determination and effort. And I'm really curious to think specifically to know how success looked for you at that time and whether that's changed for you over the years.
[00:03:01] spk_2: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, you know, the definition of success should be different for all of us and should change throughout our life from my perspective. And so when you're young, you think about just playing on the field and reaching certain milestones as being an indicator of not just achievement but what you would see as success. But of course, with each milestone that you achieve, you realize that it's only another step on a much broader, deeper journey. And of course, once you hit your twenties, it's very different from your early teens and then into your thirties and beyond, you realize that there's many things that are much more important and that and you search for meaning as to what you are doing and what you are intending to do or perhaps what you should do. And so therefore over time, I think you do and I'm talking about all athletes here, perhaps all of us in relation to our careers. But certainly I did start to a position, an athletic career in a very different from a very different perspective. And so the concept of representing Australia, I very often speak about in many Fora today, meaning that is the terminology that's used for someone who, you know, performs or is chosen to perform in an athletic pursuit for their nation. And so people would constantly say you're representing Australia, you're representing Australia And then over a period of time, you start to think, well, what am I representing, you know, what is the concept of Australia? And you know, and what are the underlying concepts of this thing called Australia? You know, are we living up to them? Are they real? And so that journey is something that I think naturally would take you into social justice and human rights and marginalized groups.
[00:04:40] spk_1: That's such a deeply profound acknowledgement. Craig. And before we dive into that a little bit more around this idea of representing Australia and what that means to you and you sort of, I guess transition, if you will out of professional football into activism, I'd love to know if there was like a juncture moment in your career where you realize that the accolades, I don't know, did they just become less fulfilling or was there a moment that you thought? Wow, what am I going to do after football or who am I? What am I all about if this wasn't a part of my life. Is there a moment for you? Do you think that's something most athletes go through? I
[00:05:13] spk_2: don't know. It's an interesting question and, you know, there are many, of course individual athletes a pursuit that I would have really struggled in. So the thing that I most enjoyed was being able to achieve short term victories, you know, and longer term successes. If you like with a group and that group included my family and my friends and my community. And I was never a motivated to get up in the morning go and thrash my body, you know, or psychologically in order to stand in front by myself and think that I had done something special just was not a, was never a motivation and isn't today. And so if I had to be an individual athlete, I just don't think it would have worked. I would have gone into a different pursuit where I was able to work with other people. And I guess the concept of team was something that I came to really enjoy and to believe in, in, in a sense and started to also form a large part of my worldview about, you know, what is the team, you know, what is a collective, uh you know, how do we all interact and what is the responsibility of interdependence that we all have? And I think a team sport can lend itself to those that kind of deeper thinking. And so I enjoyed, you know, the act of playing together with another group. But, you know, the, the actual physical pursuit of just running around and around a field all day long and being paid to do that, I think was something that I wasn't disappointed in my early thirties to move out of.
[00:06:42] spk_1: Mm I love this acknowledgement of the team side of Craig. And I must confess part of my fascination with your work and you as a person was also growing up playing football myself. And I always found, you know, my mom and dad would have to drag me to training. But when it came to games and when it came to being able to stand up for the folks around me in my team, the motivation never lacked when you felt like you were doing something greater than yourself. I think that's something that feels really good and I think can keep the intrinsic motivation going a lot longer than, as you said, just thrashing yourself at the gym or an individual pursuit. That's right. Yeah. And it translates, I think into leadership.
[00:07:19] spk_2: Yeah. So I guess an extrapolation of that would be so by my early twenties, I had moved not just from leadership of the groups but into actual formal organized collective responses to injustices which as an athlete that comes through our player unions. And so at the first opportunity I had, you know, it made perfect sense to me to be a young Dell get for my team as the member of our professional association or union as it was in order to transfer the power that I had to, those who didn't have it. And that's essentially what I do today, you know, 30 years later. So in other words, you know, when I'm a young socceroo or, you know, any celebrated athlete has a huge amount of power within the system and therefore, a club desperately wants you, you know, you're the highest paid, you know, in the media and you were in the national team and therefore you have an immense amount of power and authority and by power. What I mean is that the club, the employer is not going to mistreat you. And what I saw, you know, in my later teens and early twenties was that older players and younger players who lacked that authority were being horrendously mistreated. So, you know, for example, they, their contracts, you know, ripped up and their injuries. So the older generation before us, you know, wasn't well looked after from a medical perspective and they were having hip replacements and knee replacements and all of these things. So I was very attuned to the fact that hang on here I am, they're treating me well and I've just had an injury and, and the club is sending me immediately to a great specialist because they're paying me well. And, you know, I'm a valued asset and therefore I'm gonna be looked after, but there's three or four people sitting next to me in this change room, who that is not the case for them. And so therefore, it's always the ones with the power that should step forward and take responsibility for transferring that to those without. And that's kind of the principle that underpins my life. Craig.
[00:09:21] spk_0: It's incredibly inspiring and articulately put and I really couldn't agree more. And I think what you've just surfaced this idea of those of us who do have the power who experience privily, have an onus and a responsibility to use that in a way that works towards things, becoming more of a level playing field for others. You know, and there are what I'm curious about really deeply, you know, there are so many athletes who experience professional success who presumably also experience a great deal of privilege, but then who don't use it in the way that you are, who don't have that what I would describe as some sort of courage or maybe, you know, some sort of intrinsic desire to then translate their professional success as an athlete into impact for others. I'm not sure if that's because afraid of sort of negative blowback or whatever it is. I'd love to hear from you. What is it about you? What is it in you that makes you so compelled, help others in such an incredibly active and powerful way. It's a
[00:10:18] spk_2: difficult, again, it's a good question, but it's a difficult question to answer because I don't know the circumstances of, you know, the others so well. And so what I would say is perhaps some of it is intrinsic, but certainly some of it is also life experiences. And therefore this is why I'm not critical or I try never to be critical of, you know, where others sit on the continuum of understanding of various issues. You know, for example, as an anti anti racism campaigner, you know, I try to use language and bring people along on a journey because we're all at a different stage of the journey and athletes are no different. So for example, I had open eyes to when I was very young, the percentage of local first nations population in Lismore and that northern New South Wales area is higher than the national average quite significantly around 4% or higher. And therefore, I saw a huge amount of disadvantage of first nations people even when I was very young at school in the street, you know, and not so much through sport, but particularly through friends at school and other. So, you know, I had life experiences that were enabled me to become a bit more attuned to the injustices that other people were facing. And over a period of time, you start to realize that they're facing barriers that I am not. And therefore you have to think about what are those barriers and why are they there. And so I often say to people today, you know, and I speak on these things, you know, fairly regularly about the fact that, you know, people within the sporting context, people will always reference. Well, Craigie play 29 of the country and captained Australia. Right? And so that's what they see. And so you can very easily take that as red and put all your 29 shirts up in your room and a few photos and see that as justification of the effort that I expended. But if you look a little bit deeper, you realize that talent is only one aspect and that there would have been many young athletes of the same age in the same environment as me who didn't have the the social power and privileges that I had, for example. So noone ever looked at me in Australia and they never looked at me askance in any way. So I mean, the cultural, racial, linguistic majority. Whereas if I was of equal talent, but a first nations, young person of early teens, uh people in Australia are looking at me in a very different way. So my op so I am facing very different barriers to Craig Foster. And the more that we recognize that is a fact that is not to take away from our achievements. It's not necessary because we all face barriers. It's simply to acknowledge that people have barriers that I did not. And therefore I think we should all have responsibility to try and lower those barriers in order to create what we say we believe in, in sport, which is the term you use the level playing field.
[00:13:04] spk_1: Hm Craig, I just wanna say firstly, thank you as a female for acknowledging that privilege because I can assure you as a millennial, born in the nineties, growing up playing football, I was fortunate enough. I actually played for Queensland at the time, but there was no pathway really for me at that point. It was university because that was what my parents could afford. There was no money in football at all for women's. There was no a league uh version of that in Australia at that time, it didn't exist. So I appreciate you acknowledging that and something that I mean, I experienced growing up playing football with guys. I was also president of my college at university and all these kinds of things. And I always found it really interesting that when I would raise my voice, perhaps not always in a way that brought people along on the journey with me. I'll, you know, that especially in my young age, but, you know, I got a lot of labels like a whinger, whistleblower, you know, trouble or, or a challenging person or someone that is, you know, really stirring up trouble. And I just wonder, you know, I'd love to hear from you as someone who's had a very different lived experience than me, were those the kind of labels that you were getting? We were used to describe you as well. And how did you sort of navigate that as some who did want to use their voice for good?
[00:14:15] spk_2: Yeah, that's a really great question because advocacy is about making conscious choices about the way we want to advocate to whom we want to advocate how or whether we are even interested and want to bring people along on the journey, as you said, and the language that we use. And so, you know, the answer to your question is that yes, in many respects. So I was very much an activist as a player. And so, you know, I would speak to management, you know, when things weren't appropriate and staff would often come to me and say we're being mistreated by these people within this environment, even national team and others. And I was always, you know, very well prepared to go and speak to those people and say, you know, this is inappropriate. You know, these people have let me know that this is happening. So yes, many people would have said that I was a troublemaker without doubt, but that is a natural term. It's a natural process for someone who wants to challenge power and systems of authority. That's just simple. You know, the first things that systems of power will do is try and marginalize and radicalize the voices who are either opposing it or even challenging it in, in any way. So that's fine. What happened from my perspective was 20 years of work in the media, not so much training, but just entering the media and being in the media over that period of time, I started to evolve. I think in my understanding of the use of language and to be able to choose how to approach any particular situation and you need a, a diversity of voices. So, with some of the main campaigns that I've been involved in or, or have led, I'm always conscious that you need a range of different types of voices, different levels of advocacy or activism. And because you need people pushing out the boundary of acceptability to enable then people to come in behind and say, oh, well, I know you think that person's a little bit crazy, but actually, you know, they're really, they're raising a good point, you can moderate your language and then, you know, that's a very common part of human nature, right? So, you know, it's always important to make sure that there are a whole different range of voices. The important thing for advocates, if you like a human rights advocates like myself is to make a conscious choice about where you wanna sit in every instance in relation to any issue. And of course, you can calibrate that and change that on an ongoing basis. Uh You know, according to, you know, your own choices I love
[00:16:37] spk_0: that. Craig and I know you've recently studied law as well. Um I studied law at Adelaide many years ago and I think that's partly that, but also just who I am is very focused on language, use on the importance of how we use words and the power of words to drive change, you know, what you were speaking to there. I'd love to hear. I was thinking of some of the leadership attributes that it takes for you to be able to stand in that space and to stay in that space of being a little bit of a rebel rouser and pushing the boundaries, which is such an essential part of activism and of change. What would you see is probably the sort of maybe the key leadership attributes if you will that help you to, to be a voice for others and also to allow other people to have a voice as well.
[00:17:18] spk_2: So, you know, everyone looks at leadership, I think in different ways. And, you know, for me, it's an interesting concept because to have leaders means that there must be followers if you like. Whereas what I would prefer to, you know, characterize it as is that, you know, we're all deciding to move together, you know, on a particular journey in relation to any particular issue. I don't expect people to follow me, you know, I don't go and run campaigns or speak out on campaigns, you know, to in any way demonstrate, you know that I am or are trying to be or wish to be a leader. I just think if we all search our conscience, it becomes pretty obvious what we should say and what we should be talking about. I am in a position of privilege. Again, I will say because I can say things in Australia and elsewhere because I do carry a certain shield, particularly within Australia. And one of those shields to Alexis point is being male. In which case, you know, we are taught and we are validated for the fact that our voice matters, that we should be talking all the time that we have a right to an opinion, you know, that we should butt in over everyone. But you add to that, then the fact that, you know, I'm an Anglo Australian, I'm an ex sports person and, and, and broadcaster and therefore reasonably well known, you put all those together what it means is that I recognize that I can speak and challenge Australia in a way that many of our communities in Australia and they'll be absolutely smashed, destroyed and, and probably often chased out of the country, even if I'm using moderate language doesn't matter. You mentioned the legal background. I think it's very important. A, a law degree is a very significant, important and natural ally to thinking about the use of terminology and language. You know, because of course, a law degree is almost entirely about not just logic but actual the importance of language, the importance of a and you know, shall or may you know how many we talk at times we talk about those things. So and that applies to refugees, you know, that applies to gender, that applies to rights, that applies to protests that, that applies to Israel, Palestine that applies to, you know, it applies to everything, you know, it applies to, you know, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, it applies to LGBTI rights. And then background in the media again is a natural ally with that to understand how the media works and how people frame editorials to capture a certain issue and cage people within a certain construct. And so then you start to learn about how to challenge those constructs and make choices about how you want to challenge them. And people more generally would talk about that as you know, just being able to influence or persuade people or, you know, change the narrative. Ultimately, it is about, you know, if you want to torture refugees, you have to capture the language around who they are, what they represent and why they are torture. That's your first step that has to be taken. And history shows that
[00:20:16] spk_1: Craig something that I think I heard you say there and it goes back to this point around leadership is that to me, it sounds that you've become incredibly aligned with what feels authentic to you and you really with a lot of courage and bravery are really grounded enough to step into that without the need for power or influence. And in my mind, that's what makes you a leader versus someone who is trying to do things from a place of gain more power. Therefore, to influence people in a way that you know, works in their favor. I think to us at, at human leaders, this idea of self leadership first is foundational to being not just a good leader in the workplace, which is typically what we speak about, but a good human being. And it's why we talk about leadership in terms of language, of being able to influence others in a way that is positively beneficial for everyone. But in a way that doesn't require necessarily for them to agree with everything that you're doing, it doesn't require you to influence them through coercion or covert power. It's about influencing human beings by being a good human being and by having a strong moral compass and a moral compass that looks at everyone as for lack of a better term, equal and wanting to do better for everyone in that way. And I think that what you've described there, although you don't like potentially using that word, it's a collectivist kind of thing as you mentioned. But I think that's really, to me what it sounds like you're describing is this really strong self leadership capacity that you have.
[00:21:47] spk_2: It's a good characterization. Alexis. So I would say that when I talk about privilege and responsibility, you know, I've had three or two, maybe three different careers. And, you know, sport puts us, if we do achieve what we seek to achieve in sport, it can in sports like football, um it can put us in a, in a position where we can make choices. So I have, you know, the privilege of making choices about what I wanna do say and where I wanna go and how I wanna work. And I recognize that that is, you know, it's not rare, I guess, but it is different to many, many people. So again, when it comes to the expectations on other people speaking out and taking steps and you know, becoming advocates or activists or whatever the case is, you know, I'm always aware that everyone has their own risk profile and different circumstances in life. This is where I happen to be and I have been very prepared to utilize whatever I have built in the public domain to the benefit of those who I think deserve that support. And that just means, you know, really any marginalized groups. It just so happens that some of them are more prominent. And when I talked about uh you know, this concept of representing Australia, my, what happened from my perspective was over time, I started to then interrogate, well, what does that representation mean? You know, we would go abroad. I often reflect on standing in another country and looking back and you could literally see Australia, this island continent and you know, millions of people watching the game and you knew that you were overseas, you're representing, you know, this whole country back there. And then over time, I so to think about those elements of Australianness and, and multiculturalism and uh racism and all of these sorts of things. And I think it's a natural step to then say, well, if going and doing that has provided a certain element of power, then we have a duty to try to bring Australia to understanding in relation to the that it talks about. So, you know, it talks about equality and egalitarianism and you know, all of these types of things and then you look at what we've done to refugees and OK, that's unequal. And then you look at, you know, gender equality in the country, OK, that's unequal. And so to me, the issues are obvious if we measure them against what we say we are. And the reason that's important and a human rights background is because I try to stay away from just my own opinion. So for example, we have a lot of, you know, conspiracy theories are rife around the world and therefore just stepping forward to speak in the public domain about challenging issues does not necessarily equate with speaking about issues that are objective and are genuinely about equality. So therefore, you start to think about, you know, what is the construct with which I should place my support in that so that I can speak about all of these vulnerabilities in society and advocate for people in a way that is not just my own opinion about what is right or wrong. And it just so happens that the international Human Rights framework was one that really resonated with me very strongly because what I see is, you know, many, many faiths and and Australia is a secular society and one of the most important aspects that we have and, and one of the most important reasons why multiculturalism has very strong support in in excess of 80% in Australia, which is globally, very significant is because we are secular. So we are not theocracy, however, you can have the and I'm just using faith as one example, you can have incredible passion for a particular faith, but that faith cannot cross the line of discrimination against another person in Australia. And that's incredibly important line. Now, that line of non-discrimination is prescribed by human rights frameworks. And therefore that's where my interest was. And so today, I don't just say that refugees shouldn't be tortured because you know, that's against the basic principles of humanity or the word you use morality, you know, which is a fair word. What I say is OK, this is against their rights under International Human Rights. And we have signed up to the refugee convention. So we're actually contravening our own stated commitments. That's a really important distinction. Otherwise, what happened is I, you see a lot of people, they feel very strongly about things they're in the public domain, you know, fighting really hard for them, but they have no basis in international law, in human rights and the not actually based on facts or, or quite often even the truth. And so that's important because I think, you know, if we don't avoid that, we can end up by characterizing people as really great persuasive spokespeople and then what they are speaking about or advocating is just utter rubbish. And in fact, it can be divisive can be hateful. And we see this rise of authoritarians all around the world and that's exactly what they are
[00:26:33] spk_0: such a powerful and important point. Craig. And I think, you know, one of the things that's standing out for me is also that if we're trying to have a conversation around these things, accusing someone of being immoral is probably not going to be a great way of finding connection with that person and creating space for a conversation or a dialogue. But when we can bring it back to almost, you know, we talk at human leaders about bridging the intention and impact gap. And so looking at what are our intentions, our stated intentions as a country, as a people, as a species to treat one another with dignity. That's our stated intention, how can we bridge that to make sure that's the impact that we're having as well. And as Alexis alluded to for a lot of us that starts with quite lot of work on ourselves, our own ideas, our own concept of power and our own motivations. But I think, you know, your work and your fierce commitment to doing so in a way that is impactful, there's a humility about it, I think as well that is really, really essential to. And I think it's just a really important way of doing this work that will have an impact, not just in a sort of a short term media bubble environment of, you know, Clickbait type actions, but seeing that long term change for Australia as a nation and for human as a species.
[00:27:41] spk_2: Yeah. So the concept of morality is a really, really interesting one because, you know, it has unlimited definitions and many of the definitions of course come from different faiths. And that's what worries me is that, for example, I went and I grew up in the Anglican faith in, you know, I come from Anglo Celtic background, you know, and so, you know, we were naturally put into, you know, church of England, whatever they call it primary school or, you know, as we were kids and all of those things that was just part of the upbringing of many of the people of my cultural background. So I understand it. But what I also see is that much of the conflict around the world is based on the conflict of faith. So for example, I was in Bangladesh in the world's largest refugee camp only two weeks ago. And there's a million Rohingya in this refugee camp. And it's horrific circumstances and it's a human tragedy, what's unfolding there and what becomes clear when you research it is that the Rohingya are a Muslim ethnicity of what used to be known as Burma and the people, the military junta. But the people who were massacring them, raping them, burning villages down, chopping limbs off and committing genocide against them under international law are Buddhist. Now that really made me think because as I grew up, my understanding of Buddhism was that this is the most peaceful religion. You know, the Buddhists that I was aware of in popular media and elsewhere. You know, they're, they're people who sit around and you know, they're contemplating the media of life. These people are not contemplating the meaning of life. These people are slaughtering other human beings. So what you do see is that extremism of any faith in the world leads to conflict, to violence and to hatred. And therefore that again is one of the triggers that drives me into what I see as the central safe space, irrespective of any religious beliefs that I may or may not have. It doesn't matter that safe space is where religion can join and is a part of it because it has rights. But those rights do not trump the rights of people not to be discriminated against on the basis of anyone's faith or beliefs. That seems to me to be far and away the best, most effective attempt by humanity to create an infrastructure within which every human being can live with safety and dignity. Because the simple reality is religion is not that construct. I mean, it has proven that. And therefore that's why I think it's incredibly important. And in so many the conflicts we see around the world, the world must have an objective set of standards, even when it comes to conflict and to avoiding conflict. And that is called international law. And the law of conflict is called humanitarian law. And therefore they are incredibly important otherwise. And we see this at the moment with Israel, Palestine, for example, it becomes people on either side saying, well, I believe this and I believe this and if we don't do this, that's gonna happen. And none of that matters what should matter is this is the way we've agreed that you should behave and conduct yourselves. So do this, do that and don't do that. If we don't have that objective set, uh we're lost in a sea of, you know, opinion of un objectivity and of influence because then the most powerful voices and most powerful actors will always prevail Craig.
[00:30:59] spk_1: What struck me about what you just sort of were speaking about there as well. It's this idea for me that these particular frameworks create a level playing field of accountability, irrelevant of personal morality and beliefs, which I wholeheartedly agree with. And obviously coming myself from the business psychology background, working a lot with corporate organizations, etc I can't help but sort of compare that to things like corporate value sets that often we see are used in an organization to try and drive things that people think it's about bringing people together under something that is a common belief system. But in fact, it really is conformity and the antithesis of that, it's about pushing people into line to become part of something that you've set down that, that you feel is the right thing to do. And in a way it doesn't leave space for the individual to truly belong, it doesn't leave space for the individual to perhaps practice their faith or it's show up in a way that's authentic to them. And I think that in the past, so many of these frameworks and especially, you know, the way governments have been run has been about trying to impress upon a group of people, a set of what has been largely more norms for the dominant group at the time. And I'm just very conscious and appreciative that the work you're doing is really helping us unpack the built in bias that some of these frameworks have historically had as well. And it's really important that we challenge those power systems that have previously been in place there as well from organizations through to governments and as you've said through to, you know, un humanitarian levels as
[00:32:32] spk_2: well, that's totally right. So what's happened in the sport world and is slowly changing and where I spend a lot of my time is also right for every power system within a particular society, which have to coincide with the dominant way of thinking. Otherwise they, they just can't exist and media is also a, you know, a core part of that. So I think from my perspective is just to try and understand always what that system is and what the underlying assumptions are. You know, what are the underlying assumptions of Australian society that media don't question that government don't question that people generally don't question. For example, first nations rights are of those, you know, the there was an underlying assumption for several 100 years that the rights of first nations people are not equal to, you know, non first nations, non indigenous people in Australia. And there's an underlying assumption that history was just, you know, the history of Australia is just and then as the massacres come out and we now know there's almost 500 massacres of more than six or I think it's people is the definition and the native police in Queensland and elsewhere, you know, that massacred over 40,000 people, all of these things you know, that should naturally lead everyone to understand that the education system and the way of thinking that people are inculcated into has certain underlying assumptions and decisions about what should be included and what shouldn't be included. And those are what should always be interrogated, what industry does in the corporate world is. It, it also says that you should leave your humanity at the door. So take, for example, lawyers, you know, the legal profession has some of the most to answer for legal professionals say, well, there is no morality in my work. I, you know, I have a client and my job is just to draw up the acts that they are seeking. So I say to the legal profession and I speak to their associations reasonably regularly, I say to them. So you need to realize that someone wrote the laws of Nazism. You need to realize that someone wrote the transnational tax laws. You need to realize that someone wrote the laws to allow companies to avoid their responsibilities to the, you know, someone's writing these laws, you know, which over time are recognized as contrary to the very existence of a safe environment or a livable planet or even people, someone wrote the laws in relation to offshore detention. And someone drafted the law that says that if an Australian doctor goes over there and sees people harming themselves, you're not allowed to come back to Australia, you must break your Hippocratic oath. And if you do say the heinous things that you saw us doing as a country, we will imprison you for 10 is someone wrote that actual law and I think the profession has to be accountable to that as do bankers for, you know, the, the hiding of money and, and all of these things. And so this concept of banality of evil, which means I'm just a cog in a bigger wheel and I'm not responsible for the wheel. Has to be, you know, I think uh really um torn apart, you know, everyone as this of us is an actor. And if two of us, if us 43 on this call join together, we have power, we get another three, another, another three, all of a sudden the cog looks very different and that's the reality of activism.
[00:35:44] spk_0: I could not agree more strongly. Craig. And I really appreciate that work that you're doing to help the legal profession also to hold itself accountable. There's almost like dehumanize ourselves by claiming to be a cog in the wheel so that we can dehumanize others. And it's atrocious and it needs to end. You know, we've, we've talked about humanitarian law, football and activism, which are three of my absolute favorite things. I'd love to know from you. Craig. What's your personal mission right now? And, and where might we expect to see you in, say 10 years from now?
[00:36:11] spk_2: The answer is, I just don't know, I really have no idea. I haven't been, you know, I kind of went into media after playing and then I finished my legal background and so on and, and I just was committed to, you know, trying to help with various, you know, homelessness and domestic violence and other things and then, you know, that's just led one thing to another. And so I get approached about a lot of things and if I feel strongly about them, I will go and help. But, you know, I don't covet leadership. It's not like I want to be, you know, people always ask about politics. You know, I think it's just too dirty and too craven in many respects that I could even survive there. But, you know, if I feel that I need to go in there, I would do it on the basis of trying to make a difference but not try. I don't need a position. I don't need really anything else. I have everything that I kind of dreamt of. So, you know, but I, I understand I've got probably 15 good years, you know, I'm 54. So let's say by the time I'm uh you know, 70 or maybe I should say uh 80 whatever it is, you know, where I want to be actually actively engaged every day. I mean, you know, rather than just having a bit of time off, you know, to make more of a contribution. I don't really know where that's gonna be. At the moment. I'm focused on still trying to change some of the laws around refugees and the narrative in Australia to put us and anti racism. So I think that, you know, anti so racism is something that Australians do not want to deal with it underpins the beginnings of post colonization. Australia. It comes out intermittently in a really foul way and, and we've never dealt with it because we don't want to deal with it. And so I think I'm committed to trying to help us get in a position where we can do that. And one of the things I'd like to do in the next couple of years is just help through the prism of sport, which is so culturally powerful, uh help with some education and human rights of our next generation of athletes coming through because we've had many athletes willing to step forward and advocate for really important issues. But even most of them without a legal background, we know Sally, you know, how dangerous that can be because they know it's right, but they can't articulate why. And I think it, you know, it makes a lot of athletes reluctant to do so because they lack the framework of protection around them to say, well, this is what the world has agreed. It's not just me as a tennis player. So I think if the next generation of athletes understand the human rights framework really well, I think it'll give them a lot of safety and comfort and skill to be able to help shape a better world.
[00:38:32] spk_1: Craig. You strike me as being someone that has enough passion to probably never slow down. But so well, perhaps we interviewing you again in 20 years time. But to summarize our conversation, Craig, I think you are someone I'm certainly inspired by and I'm sure many of the leaders that listen to our podcast would be inspired by too. And something that we hear so often in the work that we do is people just not knowing where to start with this. So what advice could you give to someone perhaps at a grassroots level that they could take and run with right now to start making change for themselves and to support those around them so that we can create, you know, a better world where we, everyone matters to in equal value. Where should we start? Yeah. Good
[00:39:11] spk_2: question. So there are many things to do. The first thing I would say is, and just to refine what we were talking about earlier is this, that you can be a really compassionate human wanting to make a difference to other people that you can see aren't in the same situation as you and you want to lower barriers and that should be part of our basic shared humanity. But I would encourage everyone to do the minimum reading. You don't need a law degree, but to do the minimum reading, which is not much at all just to understand that human rights exist basically what they are. You know, there's a number of simple books and, you know, pamphlets and there's a whole, you know, you don't have to spend too long, but to, just to understand that and to start to think about how to ground your advocacy in those areas. So for example, if you think that disability in Australia is not well served, you know, disability rights and so on, always just then go across to that framework and say, well, what does the international Human rights framework say about ability and disability? Right? Because it is there, you know, there rights in international law that every disabled person has around the world. So it's not just for example, in my context, Australia. So that's the first point before you even get started. And then what that does is that'll give you a very strong firm grounding to now be able to better understand not just the rights themselves, but how you can advocate for them. The next piece of advice is just start to take steps, you know, you sign a petition, join up to an organization that you think is on the right path. And I would say not political organizations here, we're talking about human rights NGO organizations that are working on the basic underlying rights for the first period. Don't worry about, you know, maga or you know, make Australia great or that's a totally different field whereby, you know, if you understand people's underlying rights, you can make better choices about the political structures that can bring them to life. If you do the opposite, you know, you can really end up in anywhere because there's no kind of basis, fundamental basis to what it is underpins your thinking. So I go there, learn that and then just start to take actions, You can join, you can volunteer, you can sign a petition, you can share something. And what you'll find is that you gain strength with each one of those and it's like sport, it's just exercising different muscles. And so you start to learn that the pushback is of no consequence. So what you might have been scared of yesterday and this is just part of the human condition. You know, we look at a new field and think, oh, that's so difficult. I don't know if I'm gonna do it and then you step in and do it and you think, well, that was far more straightforward than I thought I need to go to hire. You know, that's why we're supposed to climb mountains as humans. So do that in this respect and the stronger you get, the better you get, you'll uh you start being able to frame your own discussions, conversations, advocacy and you don't know where you'll end up. Craig.
[00:41:51] spk_0: It's been an unmitigated delight for us to speak with you today and to share your wisdom with our listeners personally, I think, you know, really excited to follow your work and very inspired by your work. And if you did end up becoming the first president of Australia, I wouldn't be, wouldn't be mad. Just got to say it. We really appreciate your time. Thank you for
[00:42:11] spk_2: being Well, that's not gonna happen. That's the bit
[00:42:14] spk_0: day it,
[00:42:16] spk_2: well, hopefully it's a woman. We, we really need a woman. I think we need a woman as the first president.
[00:42:21] spk_1: That's true. We had a false start, didn't we? Yeah.
[00:42:25] spk_0: Legs for president. Thanks so much for being with us today. Craig.
[00:42:29] spk_2: OK. My pleasure.
[00:42:37] spk_0: As you can probably tell this conversation with Craig Foster left me pretty mind blown. And if I'm honest, emotional, I feel challenged and inspired in ways that I can't even articulate. And I keep coming back to this concept. Craig and Alexis mentioned of working as a team, the necessity of working together as a collective to achieve those important goals that we, by definition cannot achieve alone. If you'd like to build self leadership and improve your team, organisation's culture. That's exactly what we do at human leaders. Find out about our workshops at www dot We are Human leaders.com. Thanks so much for being a part of this incredible ongoing conversation. We'll see you again soon.