Quietly Powerful with Megumi Miki
Welcome to the We are Human Leaders podcast. In this episode, we are talking to Megumi Miki about the superpowers we have which lie beyond the traditional lens of leadership and how as leaders we can step into our power and own our voice, through the framework of Quietly Powerful Leadership.
Megumi is an author, speaker and consultant in leadership, culture and diversity and inclusion, with a background in strategy, economics and finance. Megumi challenges the status quo in leadership to unlock the hidden talent and collective potential. She is the author of Start Inspiring, Stop Driving: Unlock your Team's Potential to Outperform and Grow and Quietly Powerful: How your Quiet Nature is your Hidden Leadership Strength, which received the Australian Career Book Award for 2020 and Best Leadership Book of 2020.
This episode is a real invitation to tap into the power of our unique authenticity as leaders at work and beyond.
For more information about Megumi Miki and her book Quietly Powerful visit her website and access all of the information about her book here.
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For accessible access, view the podcast with closed captions below and access the full conversation transcript.
Episode Transcript:
Alexis: Welcome to the We are Human Leaders podcast. I'm Alexis Zahner co director at Human Leaders Together with sally clark. Today we're speaking to Megumi Miki. Today's conversation sheds a new light on what we believe to be underrated and often unsuspecting leadership superpowers. Megumi is an author, speaker and consultant in leadership, culture and diversity and inclusion with a background in strategy, Economics and Finance. Megumi challenges the status quo in leadership to unlock the hidden talent and collective potential. She's the author of start inspiring. Stop driving, unlock your team's potential to outperform and growth And quietly powerful. How your quiet nature is your hidden leadership strength which has received the Australian career book award of 2020 and the Best Leadership Book of 2020. This episode is a real invitation to tap into the power of your unique and authentic leadership strength at work and beyond. Welcome. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did. Thank you for joining us today, Megumi we're very excited to be speaking with you sally and I have both been diving into your work recently and we'd like to know can you start by sharing with us a little bit about your story and what brought you to write your book quietly powerful and how that's kind of got you to the work that you're doing now.
Megumi: Sure. So there's a personal and a professional story to that. So the personal story is that I have always been a quieter person as a little kid. I was very quiet. The baby of the family. I've got an older sister and my mom and dad and the, my dad's quieter, but my mom and my sister aren't that quiet. And so often I used to be quite comfortable being the quieter kid and I remember my mom used to often talk on my behalf so somebody might ask the question and she'd just answer it. And so I felt quite okay with that because it was easy, right, you just sit back and let them talk and let them go like that. And so yes, I grew up like that and um in japan, so it's part of my upbringing has been in Japan and my background, my parents are japanese, I'm Australian born. But anyway, I've got a japanese background and what there's a word in japanese that says it's, the word is called dashi, which is often what I got told and it means mild and meek and quiet and reserved and all of those sort of things, but it actually means when you translate it literally, it means adult, like, so it means mature in some way. So in a way I got told that and I never thought of it as being that bad. So, so I never really thought of it as being necessarily a bad thing, I grew up that way through school and and all of that. Um and the other thing is when I was growing up at school in um I moved around a lot as a kid through school. I went to eight different schools and I, I think I between Australia, Japan and Canada three different cities in Australia as well, so lots of different schools and my way of coping with that was to just stay invisible and just blend in and as much as I can because what I found is that if you're in Australia, I look a bit different back in the seventies and eighties stood out a bit, there weren't many asian kids around, so I just did my very best to blend in as much as possible, which meant I was a bit quieter. The other thing is when I went back to Japan interestingly I may have looked the same, but some of the things that I did that I learned in Australia was a real no, no in Japan like just sitting down cross legged, that's a big no no for girls in Japan, so so things like that I got told and you know, people, some people picked on me and so I thought okay I'm just going to blend in and try and do what everybody else is doing so that all of that combined and as you probably know, Japanese culture is very much a conformist culture, you know, you're supposed to look the same and at school you have to wear the same uniform and same haircut and all of these things, so all of that combined meant that I was very skilled at adapting to fit in and so that also meant that I stayed quiet. So that was my personal story. And so when I went into the workplace and people told me to speak up more and all of these things, it was like, hang on, that's a bit different than my, my upbringing and my experience, so that's my personal, so
Alexis: incredible. And so it sounds like it's this blend of, I guess what you would refer to as conditioning, you know, growing up as the youngest child as you said, having an outspoken parent or, or a parent that was speaking sort of on your behalf as well as that um cultural dimension of the more collectivist orientated sort of culture really imbuing into you from a young age then
Megumi: having said that though, because I did grow up in Australia as well. Yeah, so in a way I had a slightly different take on it as well compared to some of my friends who lived in Japan for their whole lives, so there was a little spark that said, there's something different that's possible here. Um so yeah, so that's the personal side, but the professional side is um I've been working in the leadership and organizational development field for a good 20 odd years and being in that field looking at different cultures and looking at different leaders, I noticed the, the skew or bias towards the louder the dominating, the people who took charge in quotation marks and they're almost like, you know, the leaders know better kind of belief and the damage that sometimes that can do well is also noticing a few of the leaders that I worked for who were a little quieter and they were a bit more empowering and allowing and much more supportive of supporting our voice as the team members. I really enjoyed working for them and I thought well there's something a bit not quite right here in this whole idea of leadership and while a lot of these things have been written like good to great talks about humble leadership and things like that, I just felt there's still a little underlying unconscious belief if you like about what good leadership looks like and I really wanted to shake that up in some way mm
Alexis: agreed
Sally: Yeah and was there spoke about some of the leaders that you've worked with, you saw their different approach there perhaps more quiet approach with a particular moments or sort of people in particular that stood out to you as being inspiring or creating again that spark moment of things can be
Megumi: different. There's a couple of leaders that come to mind. I worked at uh Anderson consulting which doesn't exist anymore. It's now called Essential which is a huge global consulting firm but it used to be called Andersen consulting, there are a couple of leaders that I worked there on projects. One was a woman who was the team leader of a project team and she just left me to run things and you know, she was there, she was always said if you need help just call out, but she just left me to run things and she listened to me if I was having trouble and ask a few questions and then I, you know, would sort of solve the problem and move forward and I found that was very empowering and even though as a young consultant sometimes I really didn't know what I was doing, I felt like I was given the trust and so I felt like I worked really hard as a result because I wanted to live up to her expectations. So that was very powerful and the manager above that who was a man, he was, he was similar and so these two had a huge impact on me just observing how they led the team and how how the team performed so well in the end, so each of the teams ended up working with the clients remarkably well, there was a combined client consultant team and in a way we kind of took on a similar approach with the clients where we empowered the clients to do a lot of the thinking and work with us rather than often in consulting what I see is consultants better and they go in and tell people what to do and it's really quite offensive because clients know their businesses. So I really enjoyed that approach and so I found that that way of consulting and as well as leading was really powerful and so that was quite a long time ago. But I reflect on that quite a bit and said, well that was a really good time in terms of watching different ways of leading and that male leader that I talked about the person who was managing the whole client engagement. He's one of my quietly powerful leader interviewees for the book. And so I went back to him and said, can I interview you,
Sally: is that a stepping into that a little bit deeper Megumi, can you talk us through what the anatomy of a quietly powerful leader is? What does it look like?
Megumi: I was really that question, I'm wondering whether what you meant by anatomy like what what is there a particular thing you're looking for?
Sally: I guess the kind of, I guess the structure that the approach that a quietly powerful leader might have, what are the sort of the hallmarks perhaps of their approach that would help you recognize someone as a quietly powerful leader.
Megumi: Um so I think some of the hallmarks would be that they're not always a center in the center of attention. They're not always the one that's talking all the time, which is the quiet aspect of it, but alongside that that because of because they don't take up the space if you like. They allow space for others to step in and step up and what that does is it builds trust because they listen, but also they create space for people to speak and therefore they've got more to listen to. Um so so that will be sort of at the behavioral level, but to me what is different is that they they listen, but they they listen from a place of humility and curiosity as opposed to how sometimes people listen in order to rebuttal, argue back or respond. So you don't feel that with these leaders. And I found that with the people I interviewed for the book um I found it really easy to speak with them and you know, I was the interviewer but I still also felt listened to in a way, which is a strange thing to say as an interviewer, but it just felt like that and so it's creating that space, having that humility. They're curious because they know that they don't know everything and so yeah, they create that space. So yeah, it's like an understated kind of presence, but they are very present at the same time, so they don't take up the space, but you know that they're there
Alexis: and it's interesting Megumi because when I first came across your work and came across your book quietly powerful, it struck me that we might be talking about giving strength to introverted leaders and how to how introverted leaders might find a way to raise their voice, but what I'm hearing here is that it's more of these sort of practice trait like ways of being and mindsets almost like approaching things with curiosity and humility which aren't necessarily innate traits, There are things that we can learn to be
Megumi: so and I guess it
Alexis: goes really lovely into our next question then is you know, what exactly do organizations stand to lose when quietly powerful leaders aren't able to step into their power in our workplaces.
Megumi: So I think when quietly powerful leaders or potential quietly powerful leaders are overlooked, you miss out on this amazing leadership that is very inclusive because that's the result that you get when you have leaders who create space for others. So you miss out on inclusion, which is so important these days, you miss out on leaders who empower their teams. Like I was sharing about the two leaders that I was talking about. Um and as a result the performance suffers because if I think about, you know, thinking about some of the projects I've done in consulting or even post consulting days comparing my time with these two leaders I spoke about versus another leader who was quite dominating and telling me what to do and things like that I reckon the effort I put in was remarkably different firstly, but I think the result that we got together was hugely different in terms of the outcome we achieved with the clients and the team and things like that. Um I still remember that particular client project. The clients were so happy we did this whole celebration and it was just a really fantastic project that we were in. So I think, yeah, the organizations really miss out on that inclusion engagement empowerment. Um and and things like that. And and also I guess if you're not listening to some of the quieter voices, you're missing out on the different perspectives. And I think often that's talked about because quieter people often will be thinking about things, listening to things and observing things that people who are talking all the time might miss. So there's something different to bring in there.
Sally: It also sounds like there's potential sort of real collaboration that can be missed when we're not sort of tapping into that mindset because of that beautiful way that quietly powerful leaders can hold space and create that sense of inclusivity. It sounds like your experience was a really beautiful example of that, where it became something where people felt very involved, very valued and that creates such a beautiful sort of almost less hierarchical collaborative approach than one might have traditionally seen in a consultancy environment. Was that was that your experience? Yeah.
Alexis: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No, I really still, I still keep in touch with a number of the people on that team.
Sally Wonderful. I'm curious and this is a bit of a personal note as a, as a former finance law. I remember really clearly as a lawyer being told a few times to fake it until I make it in the work environment. So to really sort of um for me it felt like sort of stepping into behaviors that didn't feel very natural to me, but felt necessary to be successful in that, in that quite cut throat environment, we hear it a lot and it's often something that I think is sort of told to younger people as well, you know, you don't have your confidence yet, so just fake it till you make it and overcome your fear and potentially impostor syndrome in that way. What are your thoughts on that concept?
Megum: Well, now that I've lived a few more years and when I first got told some of that I would say absolutely not helpful and the, the experience I had earlier on in my career, particularly as I was starting in leadership and culture because my original background wasn't that I was in Economics, Finance and Strategy, so very different areas and I jumped into culture and leadership. I started, I had to learn facilitation skills, public speaking skills, all of these things. So they were, they were new to me and what I found when I was doing all this training and I had just incredible training from teachers who were very different to the usual, it wasn't just technique, it was absolutely about who you are and who you showed up as. So it was really quite challenging and stretching. But I remember one time we were training as a group and there were other people in the team who are much more gregarious and entertaining and extroverted. And so I was thinking I need to, I need to bring that energy, you know? And so I stood up and I tried to be much more energetic, use my hands and all of these things and and the teacher told me you're like a happy hammer, you're just making that up, you're faking it, what am I supposed to do? And she said that's not gonna work for you because you could really tell you can feel that you're putting it on. So, so since then I've just been thinking, well, what am I supposed to do? And I couldn't quite work it out because I didn't need to bring energy, but I had to over time work out how I bring my energy, which was actually more about presence.
Megumi: wasn't about the external, you know, gregariousness, it was actually about my presence and however I showed up with that presence. So that was a really great learning. Um but also what I say to people around taking till you make it is about distinguishing faking versus growing. So there will be times where you need to grow in order to develop some skills and it's all it's going to be uncomfortable of course, and there's nothing wrong with that to go through that discomfort because you're growing as long as you're developing skills or experiences that are uncomfortable going through the experiences that are uncomfortable for a purpose,
Megumi: as long as it's meaningful and purposeful to you, then that's okay because you you'll pursue that. So I went through a lot of uncomfortable training, but I knew I really wanted to be a good facilitator, so that's okay. On the other hand, faking it is when people tell you this is what you should do and you're not quite sure and you don't really have a compelling reason and you have to put it on. So to me, there's a difference there,
Alexis: sounds like a very important distinction to make their Megumi and it's an interesting one because I think we often think of this word charisma as being associated with leadership and I think when we dive into the language of these words a little bit more, we actually find it's quite powerful to understand what makes up things like charisma because there's been research done by a woman named Vanessa Van Edwards around what actually makes charisma and she talks about charisma as having two core components and that is competence and reliability. So when you talk about this idea of faking it till you make it and you know, being someone who's naturally perhaps quieter um or naturally, you know, not extroverted and waving your hands around when you speak and things like that, I think people will, people can detect that inauthenticity in that moment because it isn't naturally you. And so I think sometimes I know when I first came across that research, this idea of understanding charisma is is the, you know, the coupling of competence and reliability. I thought well, so actually everyone has the capacity to be charismatic, it's just bringing those things together in the right formula that actually feels natural to you and everything you've said really, you know, for me really reinforces that idea.
Megumi: Mm Yeah, absolutely. That's really interesting.
Sally: And I think also for me, what stands out is that sense of sort of being able to tune into the type of growth, the type of discomfort that we're experiencing like you said, what's the meaning behind this? Why am I doing this? And I fully agree, I think growth by definition is uncomfortable but being able to identify whether we're growing in a way that does have that sort of authenticity and therefore the discomfort is okay or whether it's coming from another motivator and external motivate that maybe someone is telling us we should be different and I certainly relate to what you said as well when I was younger, I was very susceptible to that and it's been a really been a great process to see that as I know myself better. I'm better able to identify when the growth feels authentic or not.
Megumi: Yeah. Which is why it's really challenging for quieter professionals when they get told things like, well you need to go and do assertiveness training or presentation training and there's a formula, it doesn't work for them and a number of people who have come to my programs or coaching who said I've been to some of those and it was really difficult is because of that because it wasn't something that they saw meaning and purpose for. So it wasn't coming from there. They want desire as opposed to you know, somebody else telling them they need to do it.
Alexis: Mm and you know, just moving through that as well, Megumi because you're obviously a quietly powerful leader yourself. So how do you find that authenticity and that alignment in how you lead others that feels right and natural for you?
Megumi: Mhm. Um it's interesting as I was interviewing the quietly powerful leaders, I came across or not came across, I I started to notice a few patterns of what I noticed in these leaders and I named them the three attributes of the quietly powerful leaders and I think that's what keeps me authentic and so the three firstly that you just need, just getting comfortable when you're in skin, so not feeling like you're you're good or bad, just just a person and you have strengths and weaknesses and you have things that you like and don't like and you have the whole lot so your whole rather than thinking you've got strength and you should just focus on that, which I know there's some quarters where you talk about strength based training or coaching and things like that, I think that's partially useful but it's partial because when you start to go, okay, well weaknesses are no good, you should ignore them well it's still there. So what do you do with it and you know, you feel bad about it, so that's not helpful. So I guess to get to that place and being okay with, you know, you've got strengths and weaknesses and of course you can work on some of the weaknesses if it's useful to do so um and so just getting comfortable with that. So that's what, that's the first attribute. The second attribute which I've already touched on is about presence and I do find that the more comfortable you become with yourself, the more present you can be with people because you're not as self conscious and worrying about how am I coming across or how what's the right thing to say or am I coming across as competent and those little worries in the head as you get more comfortable, you're not as worried and therefore you can be much more present to each moment and what's going on and being able to be of service which goes into the third attributes which is about being purposeful and again, we've already talked a bit about this purposefulness whether it's about growth or whether it's about in any interaction or the work you do, if you have that sense of purpose that's bigger than yourself, then I do think that you feel like you're doing something that's pulling you rather than you've been pushed into doing something and that makes a huge difference in terms of being authentic, even when you're feeling uncomfortable. Um and I found that the quietly powerful leaders, quite a number of them said oh I never thought of myself as a leader and I didn't really get into it until somebody tapped me on the shoulder and they said the only reason why they stepped into leadership is not because they wanted power or control or attention, it was because they felt they could contribute to something bigger and so that's a very strong pool as opposed to you know it's more the ego wanting the attention or control or whatever and I think that's such a powerful way to lead that we need more in the world. And so for for me personally, I want to see more of those leaders to shine. So that's my purpose, wanting to encourage people who may be a little quiet or maybe felt disempowered in the past when they can find that purpose to really step in with that. Um So yeah, so there's I don't know where they've come across this idea called Free trade Theory. Mm um so it's Professor brian little who talks about Free trade theory where if you do feel that passion or sense of purpose, you can really it's quite possible for people to behave out of character. So if you're a lecturer for example and you're quite shy and quiet, if you're passionate about a topic you can completely you can be very animated and so on. So yes, I find that to where you know, I don't particularly like being the center of attention, but I will for for a purpose
Alexis: and imagine if we had leaders who were in positions because of that passion and because of that rather than the need to seek title or the need to dominate or the need to have power.
Megumi: Absolutely.
Alexis: Imagine how different the world would look.
Megumi: Absolutely.
Megumi: Everyone went into leadership. Exactly, that's certainly an aspiration and if I can play a small part then I'll be very happy,
Sally: definitely. That definitely aligns with human leaders, I'm
Megumi: sure.
Sally: So for those of us who are perhaps not so quiet types and we want to really tap into that beautifully inclusive approach that you spoke to earlier, how can we, you know, what are the key ways that we can use or tools that we can use to start to cultivate the skills that are quietly powerful leader has.
Megumi: Yeah, I think it's a nice way to ask that question because something that often people who are not so quiet would say is how do we support these quieter people? And I said to them, don't try and support them learn from them because there are things that they do that's actually much more beneficial as a leader than perhaps some of the people who are um you know, it's not to say everything is, but so but there are some things that the quieter professional does that is useful. Um So so that that will be one to really notice what they do in terms of how they listen, what they listen to, how they think about things, how they synthesize different ideas, notice that more notice that talent. Um So so you can learn from them but also notice that talent and really highlight that rather than saying, oh they're quite, you know, they're not leadership material, which is what often happens. So so that would be one that way you can really start to not only recognize those people and their talents, but also it gives them more confidence to say, okay, okay with this style and I can bring my best version rather than feeling like they're they're not good enough because they're quieter. Um and if you see that they've got really great potential in their own style, then of course promote them. You know, look past the the initial um style or initial impression you might have, um you know, maybe they come across as maybe not outwardly confident, but you know, they've got a lot of substance, so why not tap into that? So that would be one, the other thing is it's related, but the other thing is to not make assumptions. So something I've noticed people do sometimes is when somebody's quiet they make assumptions like they won't be very good at public speaking
Megumi: For example I I personally fell into that bias where I was working with somebody who's quite quiet as a colleague and we were about to do a um like a huge 100 person event and we were going to co facilitate and it's really silly but because I've done facilitation even though I'm quiet, I was feeling quite comfortable with that but I was a bit worried about this guy because he was quite nervous and you know quite quiet and things like that and he got on stage and he was amazing. I was blown away and I'm going oh my God I'm making assumptions that I'm telling people other people not to make. And I know I get upset when people make that assumption about me and I did it myself. So it's like you know catch those assumptions and go hang on that's not always true. So that that's an example public speaking but there's many many other assumptions that people might make whether it be you know people who are quieter in the meetings and they assume that they don't have anything to say or that they're not really you know capable or you know lots of different things can can be assumptions but actually if you gave them the time the space or even chat to them afterwards you find that that they've got so much depth and uh let me say out on that.
Alexis: And you know what's so interesting to me when I was hearing you speak. And as you said, you know, even yourself has fallen into the trap of this. And what we often um you know, need to realize is that we are very geared to make judgments. It's actually what our brains best start doing our very geared to get quite stuck in our mental sets of what we think something means. And if someone is quiet it means they'll be, you know, bad at this and better at this or probably more cerebral and less social and all of these sorts of stories that we make up. But what I really loved um hearing you say was that it's not about necessarily whether or not your brain will make that judgment. It's about taking the opportunity to challenge that judgment actually. Is that the right story? Am I missing something here and to challenge that?
Megumi: Yes, Absolutely. And really look for evidence, Diskant firming evidence. And because I never saw the good thing about my assumption making about this colleague that I was working with is I thought it but I didn't really say anything or stop him from doing anything. I'm so glad because he was absolutely amazing
Alexis: and you know, how often must we as leaders think this person is not really demonstrating what we believe to be capacity to be in that sense. So we'll take them off that project that we won't give a speaking opportunity or will reassign them to this particular client facing the opportunity might be beautiful opportunities.
Megumi: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And you know, you talk about client facing opportunities. Some of the quietly populated I interviewed were partners at law firms and one of them, I remember saying she noticed that the clients really like talking to her being a quieter one then allowed a partner because she listened. So she was actually better at the quiet client relationships and the less quiet partner actually acknowledged that in front of the whole group saying, I've noticed that she clients like to talk to her,
Sally: I'd really I'd also imagine that the team that she was working with but would probably feel a lot safer in a lot of ways, working with someone who is a better listener and who creates that space for different, different kinds of approaches as opposed to the sort of domineering the classic sort of law firm partner that that might be the norm in most places.
Alexis: I was just going to say, I'll raise my hand there because I know that I am certainly naturally falling into the not so quiet leadership type and you know, we it's not always intentional, but it's the impact you have. And I think that's the moment where you have to realize that even though your intention might be good often if the impact, that's an opportunity to learn from some of the Yes,
Megumi: yes, absolutely, and I know not so quiet leaders who who have learned and and accommodated and done all of these things, so it's not like you can't, so that's why I don't think this is about introversion, extroversion, it's about a skill or a mindset that can actually bring something different in the whole idea of leadership. Um what I was going to say before is I just wrote an article posted an article about normal bulldozers no more.
Megumi: sure having, I'm sure you having been through the election campaign, this whole idea of the bulldozer was that came up and yeah, I do think, well, I do hope that the new government creates a different kind of tone because it's necessary now that they've got quite diverse voices in the parliament to really listen and work with that diversity and otherwise you miss the opportunity of bringing in these voices. Imagine I was really worried if there was still this bulldozer approach and brought all these amazing views in, it's just gonna get nowhere. So yeah, so that would be, so that would be another example, I think for the benefit of that creating space and also the
Sally: safety, enormous opportunities. I think at the moment in this, in that context. For sure.
Alexis: Yeah, and now Megumi, we would love to know, and I guess um you know, this will be our last question bringing our podcast sort of to an end here for the listener and you know, once the leadership advice that you would give yourself way back at the outset of your career, knowing what you know now and why?
Megumi: Yeah, I thought about that question and if I look back at my career I wouldn't do it differently, so I'm actually, I have no regrets, so in light of that, you know, there were some challenges and there were some jobs and I really didn't like and everything else, but that led me to something else, so so in a way um I guess the first thing is not to get too hung up on where you go and where you end up because sometimes I hear younger people going well what's the right job and what's the right career and stressing out about that and um so so less worry and also be open to just experiencing different things and that will help you to work out where you want to put your energy um if you just narrow too early unless you already know and you know where to go, that's, you know, some people like that and that's okay, but if you're not sure, just try and experience a range of things, so then eventually you go, I don't like that, I really like that and and that that way you can really hone in on the things that you like to do and you feel that sense of purpose. Um so I was very lucky that I got to experiment for a little while and I stumbled across leadership and culture and I thought, wow, this is it, that this is where I want to be and and that I put in my energy from there. Um Yeah, so that's probably 11 main thing I would say for younger people.
Alexis: Yeah, and I that's, I think it's so valuable Megumi, because as you've mentioned, um You know, something that can bring quietly powerful leaders really to the four, is that idea of having or working in what they feel passionate about and what they feel purpose in. And so I think as you said, trying things until you find what lights you up is really, really important. And I know looking back at my career, um I entered university at 17, I had no idea where I was going to end up and my advice would be really similar, just stuff, try anything
Megumi: and and try stuff not only in your work, but outside of work as well, because I remember one of the earlier things that ended up which helped me to go into the work that I do now was I went to, this was part of like a culture change program, it was quite a personal development oriented program. And I remember at the end of it, sitting there going, I have no idea what I'm passionate about because I've completely lost touch with myself and so the only way to get out of that was to really think well what do I enjoy doing? And it was like painting and nothing to do with Korea when I started playing around and eventually I started to get better at noticing what lights me up, what doesn't, it's almost like a step behind before even thinking about career wise, what is really enjoyable, what what lights me up, so yeah,
Sally: yeah, I think that's such an important point as well and it's one that's not always addressed in our education systems, I certainly came away from school and university knowing ostensibly a lot about things, but not really knowing myself very well and not being aware of those sort of the variety of different skills and passions that I had, so I think those are really valuable questions for people to take away and and reflect on that, it's not just what are you passionate about in a work environment, but what are you passionate about?
Megumi: mm And translating that into work, not necessarily like if I enjoyed painting that I have to be a painter, but there's different aspects to that about creativity, making making something up from nothing is something that I enjoy, so that's what I do right now. Yeah
Sally: and tuning and also I can imagine there's also a level of sort of tuning into the present again, that is in painting and being very present to what you're creating and and very in the moment. And I think that as you spoke to earlier is such a wonderful capacity for leaders to be developing that sense of presence and attunement. Thank you so much for your time. It's been such a beautiful conversation, really gotten so much out of it and I have so many people I want to share this conversation with already. So thank you so much. Really grateful for your time.
Megumi: Thank you so much to both of you.
Alexis: We hope you enjoyed what was for us. A powerful and delightful conversation with Megumi Miki. You can find all of her details and the links to her book and more in our show notes and feel welcome to join us at www dot We are human leaders dot com. Thank you so much for being on this journey with us. We look forward to connecting with you in the next episode. See you soon.