EPS08 - Overcoming Self-Sabotage to Embrace Your Power with Iman Oubou
In this episode of We Are Human Leaders we explore the all-to-common struggle for women in business, the issue of Self-Sabotage and stepping into our authentic power.
Iman Oubou is a Moroccan American self-made entrepreneur, former beauty queen, and published scientist on a mission to change the women's media landscape. Through her diverse experience with business, pageantry, and STEM, Iman noticed gender disparities in the workforce and an omnipresent bias across printed and digital media. She founded SWAAY, an all-in-one publishing platform for women, to champion the voices of female change-makers through the power of storytelling. She is author of the 2022 book “The Glass Ledge: How to Break Through Self-Sabotage, Embrace Your Power, and Create Your Success.”
This conversations explores the personal, professional and practical elements of self-sabotage, how it may lead to burnout in our professional lives and how we recognise, acknowledge and overcome it with strategic behaviour changes which we each have the power to take ownership of.
Iman Oubou's latest book The Glass Ledge: How to Break Through Self-Sabotage, Embrace Your Power, and Create Your Success is now available internationally.
With THE GLASS LEDGE, Oubou offers a disruptive guide to help women explore and resolve the internalized oppression and self-sabotaging beliefs that rob them of realizing their true potential. Rather than prompting women to break the glass ceiling and ask how society needs to change to empower women, this book helps them reclaim their power by asking themselves, “What can I do differently?” Oubou explores the 10 most common themes around which women tend to derail themselves, including power, likability, authenticity, conflict, and more. They are organized according to when women are most likely to face them head- on, as some issues present earlier in one’s career while others tend to appear later. Each chapter focuses on one of these nuanced themes, incorporating counterintuitive and eye-opening information, including:
• Anecdotes from Oubou’s personal journey from beauty pageant queen to medical missionary and scientist to entrepreneur
• Stories from other high-profile successful women in a variety of industries
• Academic and scientific research
• Lessons and tips to overcome negative self-perception and avoid slipping off the ledge while working
your way toward your own definition of success
• Exercises that will help women turn the teachings into self-reflections and actionable next steps
Find The Glass Ledge available now at all good books stores or directly through Sounds True: https://www.soundstrue.com/blogs/authors/iman-oubou
Connect with Iman Oubou and find out more about her work and company SWAAY: https://swaay.com/
For accessible access, view the podcast with closed captions below and access the full conversation transcript.
Episode Transcript:
Spk0 Sally Spk1 Alexis Spk2 Iman
[00:00:09] spk_0: Welcome to the we are Human leaders podcast. I'm Sally Clarke and today Alexis Zahner and I are sharing our insight packed, honest and inspiring conversation with Iman Oubou about the inner work we need to do to achieve success in our businesses and careers and to live our fullest life as humans Iman Oubou is a Moroccan-American, self made entrepreneur, former beauty queen and published scientist on a mission to change the women's media landscape through her diverse experience with business pageantry and stem Iman noticed gender disparities in the workforce and an omnipresent bias across printed and digital media. She founded sway S. W. A. A. Y. And all in one publishing platform for women to champion the voices of female change makers through the power of storytelling. She's the author of the 2022 book, the glass ledge, How to break through self sabotage, embrace your power and create your success. Iman is a brave, soul searching business leader and human and her conversation resonated deeply for both of us as I'm sure it will for you. Let's delve in.
[00:01:33] spk_1: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders Iman, it is an absolute delight for this opportunity to catch up with you today and before we dive into a little bit more around your work and your book and the amazing things that you're doing, we'd love to start with learning a little bit more about yourself and your personal journey that's brought you to this incredibly important work that you're doing now.
[00:01:57] spk_2: Yeah, well thank you so much for having me, I'm so excited for this conversation and to be on this amazing podcast with two awesome women, so I really look forward to it and just to give you a quick background on my journey um it's a little bit all over the place, but I'm gonna try to summarize it as much as I can, But basically I was born in Morocco and my parents decided to move to America, especially Colorado when I was 15 years old to really pursue mostly the American dream of their Children, not necessarily theirs because, I I can confidently say that we had a good life back home, but I think they really saw bigger potential in the American education system and just you know, the american dream and they really wanted that for their Children. So we kind of picked up and and left out of nowhere was very sudden for me and I definitely struggled a little bit during that transition now looking back at that, you know, in hindsight and even when I was writing my book, I kind of reflected more on that and I didn't realize how much it really affected me, especially when you're a teenager still trying to find yourself um you know, growing through your hormones, making your place in high school and whatnot kind of picking up and moving into a completely new world has, has a lot of effect because I definitely didn't feel like I belonged, I had an identity crisis that I carry with me every day now and it was, but but in hindsight, I really feel like that's the best choice my parents have ever made and I'm very thankful for for that move and so you know, shortly after high school I went to school for bio chemistry and molecular biology, my dream was to become a cancer research scientist or a doctor especially uh in the cancer field and so that's what I pursued my education and um I then went on to Germany for an internship and came back and went to grad school for bioengineering um in colorado. And so at that point is really when I felt like I started exploring more about who I was and what I wanted out of this world and during grad school I really focused on doing more than just going to school. I went and signed up for becoming the president of Global Health Association, so that's how I ended up going on medical missions all over, you know, the world, especially third world countries, including my own home in Morocco, and then simultaneously I was also participating in beauty pageants. So it was kind of an interesting, I would say double life I was leading because on one hand I was deep in the male dominated, you know, biotech world and medical world, but then also on on the other side I was working on exploring beauty pageants and really competing in something I've never thought I would ever be able to do and I felt like that really built me up to the woman I've become today because that's how I I learned to be comfortable with being uncomfortable and so at that point, because of all those experiences combined together, I decided to leave Colorado and moved to new york um and that's when I ended up winning Miss New york us in 2015, and because of the platform and the voice that pageant title gave me, I ended up launching a podcast that became successful and ended up being what is today, sway dot com, which is a publishing platform, elevating women's voices and helping women and underrepresented voices build their thought leadership and their authority through content creation and storytelling. So that's me in a nutshell,
[00:05:17] spk_1: wow. Yeah of course, and it does, it almost feels like listening to speak about the world of like women in science and medicine and research and then women in beauty pageants also, you know, it feels like parallel universes and I imagine totally how that would have felt like a um like a split identity at the time.
[00:05:35] spk_2: Yeah, it was gonna be like a scientist by day and a beauty queen by night because I would literally leave my science job and my biotech role. Um you know, at five p.m. I would literally run into a chipotle bathroom and change into my beauty queen gowns and crowns and attend these these galleries with these important people in in new york and raise money for charities and you know, wave with my crown and do press interviews. It was a crazy, it was definitely a crazy year for me because I had to juggle a lot. But I think because of that, I have learned so much in terms of even just who I am and the type of woman I want to become and it just really equipped me with the skills of being excited about taking risks and doing things that are different that people don't think you can do as opposed to take in the road most traveled and stick into stability and security, which obviously those are important things, but I think if that's really what you value the most and you're never really going to live life to the fullest,
[00:06:36] spk_0: I love that amount and I think that I can imagine the experience of having moved to the US at such a young formative age as well would have also been an experience that kind of gave you that lived experience of you can take risks and grow from them and they will be uncomfortable and at times really deeply challenging, but they also can turn into your strengths.
[00:06:55] spk_2: Hmm Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I think I'm the type of person to, to not make a big deal out of the struggle that I'm going through at the time. So if I'm going through something right now, I usually never really show it as much and I don't also dwell on it too much, but then I do this thing where I reflect years down the road and I'm like, wow, I can't believe that I went through that on my own and that I didn't even acknowledge I was even going through that it was, you know, I went through depression and I know I talked to a few counselors at the time and you know, um my aunt as well, because she went through that transition herself when she came here at a young age. Um, but even then, I still didn't think that I had many people to talk to and I didn't really know how to, I would say channel that depression anger into a better way. So, so what I did was just journal. I wrote a lot. I wrote, I think I had like a 10 diaries at that point that I was keeping, I was just kind of talking to myself through my own feelings. And then I ended up also writing a lot of poetry, which now I'm realizing, wow, I didn't even think I could do that at the time. And then I channeled the anger to that at some point I had towards my parents for just picking up and leaving our world as we knew it and I channeled that towards tennis and sports and competing in something. And so that kept me somewhat sane and and going, but, you know, now that we talked very openly about mental health, I'm sure there were better ways to handle that transition for me. You know, I could have had therapy, I could have talked to my parents about it, I could have just been more vulnerable, but at the time I didn't really understand or see vulnerability as a power move. It was if anything it was weakness and I don't like to be or feel weak, so I would avoid that kind of, you know, state of mind and then I would just work through it however, and then reflect on it years later,
[00:08:48] spk_0: I think it's so important to have some compassion for yourself also in mind in the sense that these are coping mechanisms that we reach to perhaps at the time that thankfully, you know, reasonably helpful one, the healthy ones in terms of writing and exploring poetry, tennis, these ways of, you know, we can see in retrospect that might have been more direct ways of addressing emotions, but um you're obviously really doing the best and grappling with a lot at the time. So holding some self compassion for your for yourself through that journey I think is important to
[00:09:18] spk_2: you and I truly think I'm a big believer and and the fact that I think people who channel their pain into positive um you know, activities or skills or talent or exploring something like, you know, channeling for me my my um my pain into writing, I think is really what is what the driver is behind what I do today. I just have this passion for writing and content and storytelling and I never realized where it came from. But now that I reflected, I realized that I really enjoyed that process because it helped me tremendously find an outlet for mental health I was battling and I didn't even know maybe I was battling it at the time.
[00:10:01] spk_0: Yeah, wow. Well speaking of your writing in your book is about the glass ledge and I'd love for you to walk us through exactly what the glass ledge is, how it's for example, different from the glass ceiling and what the biggest dangers of the glass ledge are maybe particularly for a young women.
[00:10:20] spk_2: Yeah, so the glass, the glass ledge refers to basically internal battles or I like to call them self imposed glass ceilings that usually play a big part in distorting our beliefs of who we are and what we're potentially capable of. And um in my life I've been, you know, an immigrant, a pageant queen, a scientist, a medical missionary and entrepreneur, a women's advocate and now an author. And throughout all of this journey, I gradually came to realize that I had subconsciously adopted strategies that sometimes hold me back and even drained the joy out of some of my successes and as I dug deeper. Um, and spoke to actually many other women in my network and the women who are part of the suede platform and the women I interviewed in my podcast, I realized that I wasn't the only one. We all faced deep internal issues that sometimes we don't even know that we're putting up for our own selves. And so I wrote the glass ledge for basically every woman who carries those scars of the struggle to break barriers and challenge the status quo and achieve great things and still be true to herself. And so to me, I think writing this book really represents. And I talk about this. I think in the intro or maybe the prologue is that the book to me represent especially that I wrote this during a pandemic. It represents the end of an era in which women fought to bring down external barriers and the beginning of a deliberate path to expand our own perception of ourselves and what we can accomplish when we embrace our potential.
[00:11:59] spk_1: So to me iman it sounds more about, you know, doing the self work to break down our internal barriers versus the perception that there are these other external barriers keeping us in places that
[00:12:12] spk_2: right? Yeah, absolutely. And and and that's not also just want to make sure that this um this is being told. That's not to say that there aren't external factors and barriers that we're facing every day. Of course, I think at this point we all know what those are, we've all been through them. We all see them on a daily basis. But I think the mistake that we make is thinking that those are the barriers that are holding us back from achieving our greatest potential when instead the biggest danger are the self imposed glass ceilings and the self imposed barriers that we are putting up for ourselves. And those can manifest differently for different people, different scenarios and again differently throughout your life. The self imposed glass ceilings I had when I was a teenager are certainly different than those that I'm holding up to myself today. But I think the key here and what the book is really about is not to say that you have to live your life with you know, complete positive mindset and all these unrealistic standards. You know like we always have to be positive and you always have to believe in yourself. Yes, those are great. We all strive to be that way. But I think the point is for me is to acknowledge when we are becoming our worst enemies. And that's when the shift hap that's when the growth happens is when you can catch yourself saying, oh wait a minute, I am not getting the outcome I want because I'm low key fearful of failure. And because I'm fearful of failure, I'm procrastinating because I'm procrastinating. I'm not given the work, I need to do the most important And because my work is not great then that's why I'm not getting that promotion. Things like that. It's like can you identify those moments in your life and can you stop them before they sabotage you?
[00:13:56] spk_1: Mm And I feel like listening to say that sally and I are sitting here nodding our heads. Yes, I can I hear you. I feel that there are moments in my life now, certainly moments in my past where um you know, I've subconsciously been my own worst enemy and what I feel like I'm hearing you really talk about here is the opportunity to take back our own personal power. And I'd love to hear from you, like what is your, you know, personal definition of power? And how does sort of stepping into that? Or taking ownership of that? How does that really shape the way that you've led your life and you know how you lead yourself and your team now?
[00:14:37] spk_2: Yeah. So that's that's why I started the book with that theme in particular as the first chapter because I actually think that um you know, our relationship with power and what it means to each one of us really defines everything else we do in life. And so for me, I personally learned that power for me is about charting my life's course in my own terms. I'm really like, I've always been about doing my own thing in my own terms. I've never been afraid to be different or let other people's perspective of me or opinions really be the driver behind my decisions in life. And I think that all comes from the fact that I've watched my parents take the biggest risk of their life and really downgrade everything they've ever worked for just because they saw a future for us and they saw something that nobody else saw and they moved through life with so much conviction about that. And to me that's power because when you are able to really channel that and have conviction about your beliefs and your vision and not care what other people think about any of it or think about you when you make these decisions, then at that point you've won, you have the power you need, you have everything you need to live your life on your own terms. And when you live your life on your own terms, there is no reason for you not to be fulfilled or not to be happy because no one is making the decisions but you, so you have the power. You have the key to your own destiny in your life. And so for me, that's always been my north Star and my definition of power. So I try to channel that, you know, across the board when it comes to personal life decisions. Professional decisions, how I even lead my team to and I want the people around me whether in my personal life or professional life to feel that they also have their own power and that they can um, you know, channel that and they can charter their life's course without me, you know, intervening as you know, as team leader. But what do you think we should do? I trust your instincts. That's why I have you as my team member, because I want to give you the power to make those decisions and we're on board with that. So, but it starts with you as an individual. Do you really believe in that personal power of yours or not? Because some people don't, and I've seen that before, and I've been around people who are just scared of their own power. They're scared of making decisions that are going to potentially not be someone else's conventional way of living. And at that point now you're living your life according to someone else's, you know, terms and that's not fair to
[00:17:07] spk_0: you. So resonates for me and I have to say that was actually my lived experience as a finance lawyer in my twenties, that I was living my life in accordance with what I thought my parents expected and what I believe society expected of me. And what was on my business card mattered so much more at that time than what I felt in my heart. Until I had a catastrophic burnout which forced me to then suddenly really shift to I think what you're what you're speaking to, that really living from our own authentic drive, what fulfills us and letting go of what the expectations of society and other people around us might be. And I love that you were able to take that inspiration from your, from your parents story and almost channel that from from quite an early age to be following your own North style without necessarily having to maybe wait as long as quite a lot of people have to do for that catastrophic experience later in life. It's really inspiring.
[00:18:00] spk_2: And, and that's, that's interesting that you went through a burnout because I feel like at some point, you know, you always have a wake up call from the universe or from even just your higher self or whatever you want to believe in, that's like, hey, knocking on your door. Like listen, you're not doing this the right way, You're clearly driving yourself to the ground for the wrong reasons because you know, there's, it's different when you're waking up every day and so excited, even though you're working 24 7 or like, you know, you're working towards is hard, but at least it's something that you decided for yourself and it's bringing you passion and fulfillment and that at that point, I don't think the burnout hits us hard because you know, you're doing it for the right reasons and also it was your choice to do it. It wasn't driven by external factors or external expectations, but when you're driving yourself to the ground for other people or work or for other reasons that may not be stemmed from you and your who you are at the core, then that burnout hits really hard and you're like okay, I need to take a step back and reevaluate how I'm living my life here because clearly something is not aligned and that's really when burnout occurs is when your authentic self and your adaptive self are just not communicating and now you just kind of have a breakdown because there's a little glitch in the system
[00:19:17] spk_1: totally. It's the meaninglessness of doing something that's not aligned with you. Right?
[00:19:22] spk_2: Mm hmm. And I think most people are intuitive enough to know when that happens. I think the difference is that some people ignore that they ignore that feeling. But you know, we all have great gut feelings will have instincts that we nurture over time. And people who become more and more in tune with their authentic self and try to communicate. You know, I feel like to me it's like I have to communicate with myself as much as I communicate with other people on a daily basis, I have to check in with myself and and see how I'm feeling. Really not how I'm pretending to feel, but I'm how truly feeling. And so when you're not able to check in with yourself like that and given to that intuition as part of you know who you are and as part of also your strategy to fulfillment into growth and success then at that point you become kind of just this human body being driven by outside factors and you know, one day you're gonna wake up and say, all right, how much input did I really have in my life and how much, you know, contribute? Like how much did I contribute to actually making sure that I'm on the right path and I'm on the right path to my purpose and my my fulfillment, the reason why I'm I'm here in this world. And so these conversations, I would say probably 10% of the population has that with themselves, the rest, they're kind of not um you know, conditioned to think that
[00:20:44] spk_0: way. Yeah, I think that's that's really resonates for us and I think it's so important that we're having even this conversation now to maybe for some people listening to have that moment of reflection of maybe this is something to reflect on for myself, Is this a question I need to be asking myself, what's really going on beneath the surface here, and is the narrative that's running through my head actually the truth or something that I want to believe in at this time. Um I wanted to just touch on something you mentioned earlier iman and it's about this concept of how important it is for us, not just to sort of weight back on our laurels for the systems and the business culture in which we operate to change, but owning really taking ownership and empowering ourselves and how we show up in the meantime, And I guess giving ourselves some really active options rather than just kind of kicking back and settling into a blame mentality. I just wanted to clarify why, why this is so important and what we risk when we do just sink into that blame mentality.
[00:21:49] spk_2: Yeah. So we'll, just, from my experience, I definitely went through that when I was first fundraising first way back in 2017, And when, when I was in meetings or situations where I felt like there was a power imbalance and it was so obvious, instead of claiming my own right and power to be there that I'm here presenting you with an opportunity that also I carry the power. And it's not just a one sided situation. I immediately shied away and in certain situations, I even just gave away that power by not speaking up or speaking my truth by not really being my biggest advocate in that room. Um, I was easily swayed for no pun intended for by, by these potential investors just because of my own perspective of who I was in comparison to them, not of the reality of things, because I would clearly get those meetings for a reason because they genuinely gave me a chance to present what I had to present to, to showcase the opportunity I was pitching. You know, I was in that room for a reason because they saw my potential, but I didn't. So but more importantly, when things went out, I immediately blamed others and blamed other circumstances instead of taking accountability and responsibility for understanding the power of my own worth in these meetings and why I didn't speak up in certain situations and why I didn't like, you know, advocate for my own worth and value. Um, and so so the bottom line and the point is that we it's up to us to speak our truth and and press for our values. So, you know, society can is definitely changing where yes, women still do go through a million other hoops to really get to where their male counterparts are. But we are given opportunities in this world now and we are given, we are creating opportunity for ourselves too. But if we're not speaking up when we need to and we're not our biggest fan in the room, even when the power imbalance is obvious, then how do you expect other people to see that worth? If you don't see it for yourself? And that's something I constantly remind myself of because to be honest, it's not something you cure overnight. Even to this day, I think we sometimes shy away from speaking up about our potential are capable. We don't negotiate better. We sometimes settle for less. We take responsibility for bad things, even though we know we didn't have to do that also, we don't take enough credit for ourselves. And and so I think that's important to remind ourselves as well as what is the role we play in making sure we get what we want because we can't leave it up to the outside world to give us what we want. We got to go and take it. That's a big part of the equation that we're fighting
[00:24:41] spk_1: for. And I'm on one word that I heard really jump out of that for me with this concept of accountability and this is something that, you know, we talk about at human leaders all of the time in terms of leadership, accountability and self accountability. And you have this beautiful sentence in your book where you describe accountability as the obligation to explain, justify and take responsibility for our beliefs and actions and I just love to dive into this concept a little bit more. You've, you know, you've mentioned it a lot here around how not taking ownership for yourself in some of those meetings meant that you were giving your power away, but I'd love to know like how does taking accountability for those internal limitations actually affect and impact in a positive way, how we lead. What's the flip side of that when we are able to take ownership of that?
[00:25:37] spk_2: Well, I think we show up differently. Um, and I know I did that when I started taking accountability instead of looking for anyone and anything to blame. I started being more um more competent about what I was pitching. I started being better prepared. I showed up with so much conviction that there was nothing or no one in that room that could tell me otherwise and I didn't act that way. So, and I think, you know, people can read energy, you could sit there and act like you believe in your idea and yourself. But if you truly don't, it can come across, it's very obvious and in turn it affects the way you speak, it affects the way you stand, it affects your body language, it affects what comes out of your mouth, it comes out, it affects what is in your mind as well as the thoughts that are dominating your mouth. So all of this is very much related to taking accountability from day one and saying, you know what it is up to me to go into that meeting and make the most of it and really give it my best and show up with so much conviction about who I am, what I'm capable of, what I'm fighting for it. If it's a promotion, if its funding, if it's negotiating a big deal, um, whatever it is, you know, you're going there with everything you've got and believe in that so much to a point where there is no one or nothing else that can stop you from getting it and I'm going to be honest with you, I thought I showed up that way, but now that I've grown up a little bit and I took inventory of the things that I've done prior during and even after the meeting, I realized and I did it in a very objective way. Like I did it as if I was evaluating someone else because it's hard for us to evaluate ourselves, we think we were perfect and we think we're doing everything right. But I was like, no, let me just really see, how did I prepare for that meeting? Did I even prepare for that meeting? How did I show up to that meeting and really taking that inventory and almost like grading yourself like a coach would do during a basketball meet up or something with his team. Here's what you can work on and the more you do that in a very objective way, the better you will get. You know, it's not going to be easy the first time around. Yes, you will still have nerves, but at least you will know that you've done the inner work and the self work to show up in a way that you feel powerful and strong and you know what the outcome at that point becomes bonus if you get what you want. Great. But if you didn't, you know, you've given it your all and you didn't show up, half, half invested in that outcome. You really did everything you could do from the inside out to potentially lead you to the outcome you want.
[00:28:17] spk_0: I love that amount. It just really, for me resonates how closely accountability is tied to integrity because when you really take accountability for behaviors, actions, beliefs and sort of doing that analysis after a meeting and being really sort of honest with yourself, not just about, you know, how you prepared, but maybe why you didn't prepare as much as you should have or speaking for myself, why I might have procrastinated, uh, you know, doing a particular task for that long and being really, really owning that, then enables you to come to a place of real integrity when you are able to to step into the full sort of full sense of your own power. And rather than letting those limiting internal sort of beliefs, you know, rule the roost.
[00:29:03] spk_2: And
[00:29:04] spk_0: I know that you you talk in your book about some of the situations that you've been in, for example, um where a potential investor described you as being too pretty to be a ceo another said that you should stick to doing something in beauty because you shouldn't waste your looks. And I can imagine in those kind of moments that it takes a lot of that inner self work to be in a place where you don't allow those kind of messages to wear you down. I'm really curious about how those kind of situations in particular whether how you were able to navigate those and how you were able to come out feeling a sense of integrity in yourself.
[00:29:42] spk_2: Yeah, well, I definitely didn't know how to navigate those. So we'll start with that honest truth. I think at that point I was what probably 24, years old, also coming off on the heels of a beauty pageant winner and that was really kind of a big part of the personal brand I had. So it kind of, I was, I felt like, okay, maybe it is normal because that was the line of, you know, that was how people when they googled me, it was like, oh, former Miss new york, great. So at that point I thought it was kind of a comment like maybe should I take that as a compliment? You know, like how do we, how do even respond to something like that? And obviously I was offended in some ways because I, I felt like my intelligence and my competence and my ambition were not really taken in consideration at all and and my physique and my physical appearance preceded anything I could ever say. And so it was, I would say disheartening and it definitely affected me in so many ways because I think I internalized that subconsciously without really even paying attention to it. And I think at some point I started showing up to meetings with no makeup at all and wearing like just you know, pants and which was not my, my fashion style, you know, wearing like pants and a white button down is not really my go to outfit of choice, but I felt like that was a safe thing to do to avoid any kind of our, you know, comments like that. And so I had to almost change myself to feel comfortable with how the outside world saw me as opposed to educating the outside world of why I'm not those things and I'm much more than that. And so now I know better, of course, although I would say those comments have not come up again thankfully for me, Maybe I'm just attracting better. Maybe I'm just prepared better. I don't know what those are, but maybe people still think it, but at least I'm not getting those kind of set to my face in a meeting that I'm hoping I can get an investment from, which is the good news, but definitely I wish I had known how to navigate that instead, what I did was just internalize it and make it and make it my own truth, which ultimately self sabotaged everything from then on, you know, I would show up as not myself. I didn't really have much conviction of who I was. I was confused. I also deep down thought that because maybe I'm just a pretty face and that's what people see, that I'm never going to go anywhere in business, Maybe I shouldn't be in business, maybe I should do something out. Maybe they're right. And these thoughts come, you know, every now and then you can't you can't ignore them and you can also deny that those, those thoughts don't come up after those kind of comments are made, especially a couple of times during that fundraising process. But you know, I think this is where the inner work and the self work helped because then I had to really change how I saw myself. And then I had to also come into terms with the fact that the way people perceive you is not who you truly are and that's probably their insecurities, that's their own issues. That's maybe their ignorance. Also projecting on on you as opposed to taking those as um actual statements of who you truly are. And so I had to just convince myself of those things and really build an unshakable confidence from the inside out to the point where even if these comments were ever made again, it won't faze me at all mm
[00:33:09] spk_1: as a woman. You know, I don't think there'd be a single person listening to this that hasn't experienced some sort of backhanded compliment in some way because I totally hear you. How do you take that? And you know, interestingly it had me reflecting just listening to you speak then so much about my own journey in a very different way. I grew up playing sports at quite a high level football and things like that. And one thing that I used to hear so often that this has been almost a lightbulb moment for me was that, you know, I was really good for a girl, was like often the sentence tagged along at the end and what I've just recognized you through hearing you articulate your struggle is that for me, how that was internalized was when I would then find myself in male dominated industry, especially in my early career, in the business world, there was this sort of glass ledge moment where I'd be like, well I'll do as well as I can, but I'm still a girl. So if I don't do as well, it's kind of as expected and I never realized that that had formed such an integral part of my internal limiting self belief that there is this expectation for me to do my best. But it may not be as good as everyone else because I have this internalized dialogue that women necessarily aren't as competitive in certain things, so sort of a different take on how that impacted me. But it's just interesting how even perhaps not ill intended things are internalized and the consciousness when we are speaking to people around how our words may be received and internalized by people.
[00:34:44] spk_2: Yeah, well that's a very powerful revelation. That's a very powerful glass ledge moment you just had here and you just shared with me. That's amazing now, but see how much, but now that you realize it just the fact of acknowledging that kind of gives you a little bit more power back to change that and that's what that's the whole point is that it's not going to be an easy journey, but just realizing it is a big step towards growth and success and you're right, I think there's a lot of research that supports that oppressed groups often cope with these external barriers by internalizing the discrimination and prejudice they're experiencing. It's just it's human psychology, that's how it works. And for us it's easier for especially minority groups and um you know, oppressed groups, it's easier to internalize that than fight back, especially when it takes everything you have internally to do that. And a lot of people sometimes think that fighting back is only going out there and shouting and protesting and that's a big part of changing the narrative for sure. But also fighting back is dismantling that from the internal perspective as individuals because in order to achieve that collective change us individually have to achieve and the individual like dismantling of those beliefs that we have internalized as a result of the oppression and discrimination and prejudice and all that.
[00:36:14] spk_1: Yes, very powerful. And you know, listening to you speak about your journey so far man, it sounds like you've overcome so many just incredibly challenging moments as a female as a human and also as an entrepreneur and your platform sway as you mentioned, started as a podcast and it's now, you know, it got investment, it's going really strong And we just love to know like what have been some of the key lessons that you've really taken out of this journey that you wish you'd known as a 24 year old walking into a room of investors, what are some of the key lessons that you can take from that journey?
[00:36:50] spk_2: That's a good one, there's a lot, but I think
[00:36:53] spk_1: no doubt,
[00:36:55] spk_2: I think that really the biggest one for me that I carry with me almost on a daily basis now is just remembering that most of your stress comes from the way you respond, not the way life really is. So if you adjust your attitude, you can leave that stress behind and I've struggled a lot with anxiety and stress, just really trying to take sway to the next level and you know, it might be strong, but it probably isn't as strong as it could have been had. I had, I been able to get the resources I needed to really take it to new heights, but you know, I've been very determined and passionate about the mission specifically to keep pushing even if it's on my own sometimes. Um, but really, I think I just remember that it's really how you react to things as opposed to the things that happened to you. Um and so taking it really day by day, but also just from a business perspective for entrepreneurs listening, I think what I learned obviously sways my first startup and I really started it by accident if you will. So there was truly no clear direction or guidance from a business standpoint early on, so that it's probably why I think a lot of the struggle came along the way is because what what I had was really a mission to help women express themselves and and share their voices and amplify their stories and things of that nature. So the mission really was what drove me every day, but I also had no idea how to make a business out of that. Um and I think for entrepreneurs listening, that's a very important point to really flush out early on. It's just also understanding that sometimes your passion and mission driven side hustles don't always translate to scalable business models. So being able to really figure out the sweet balance between those two worlds, where you can marry your passion with a sustaining scalable business model and then really flushing that up early on before you even embark on that journey will make things so much easier down the road if you have clarity around how to achieve growth and business returns from what your mission and passion is for me. I didn't. And so that's why we had to pivot quite a bit to figure out, okay do we how do we make money from this right? Like yeah, we're helping women were a platform that is able to welcome and help any woman and even underrepresented voice to share their stories and build their thought leadership, but then how do we turn that into a business? And that's, again, I think now that I look back into my struggle with fundraising a lot of that, that was because of that, as opposed to the way I saw, it was like, oh, well I'm a young woman, you know, I can't raise money because um that was like, my fixation is that I'm a woman, I can't raise money, but then now that I know better and I've done better and I've grown and I've really like dove deeper into the business world and studied other businesses and, you know, created other side things as well. I now understand the business side of it and it truly didn't really have anything to do with me being a woman. Yes, I did have some, you know, women related adversities that I went through, but I don't think those really mattered in the grand scheme of things, but really what the bottom line was is that we didn't have a a sustainable business model we could present at the time that investors got excited about. So that's what, that's my biggest learning lesson and also just more of a reflection over my own journey of how does someone create something out of passion and mission and really keep taking it to new to new heights, there's a lot that goes into
[00:40:42] spk_0: that, I can imagine in mind and I think it's really fascinating to hear how, you know, I think if if you didn't have the sort of the drive and the natural curiosity that you do and the and the belief in in creating the forum that you have and the business that you have, it would have potentially been quite easy at some point to just sort of succumb to those beliefs or to what you were, the messages that you were getting and what you must stop the internal work as well and be like, well this is just how it is and you know, step into that narrative and just let that be the case. But it sounds to me like you have quite a natural determination and drive and curiosity and I can't help connecting that a little bit with your scientific mind as well, would that be an accurate reflection?
[00:41:25] spk_2: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, look there's I would be lying if I said that I never woke up and wanting to give up. I think at some point I've been trying to give up for so long, but it's just I can't um but I've always been very curious and very analytic obviously that like you said that comes from my science background and really always been more of a scientific person, which is funny because now I'm more on the content and literary side of things, but I'm able to apply that scale of really um diving deeper into the reason why outcomes are the outcomes and why things haven't worked out and what can be done better and really using I think every I think at this point adversity, every challenge as a learning lesson as opposed to seeing it as a blog that is going to prevent me from getting to my my next level and unlocking my potential, my whole kind of life purpose just continue to unlocking my potential because I know there's very there's many layers to us, you know, in general, just humans, there are so many layers of potential that we can continue unlock. And for me that's the game of life, that's really how much, how many layers can you unlock your potential? Some people stay at like level one or two, I'm like, I'm trying to get to level 100 you know, like what does it mean, and how what is that going to take, like, what would you change? And you know, and sometimes I think now I've also explored other things that I used as tools to be able to unlock, because you know, you're not going to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results, but now I'm channeling the spiritual side of things like, you know, how can I meditate and just let things come to me as opposed to always being the one chasing things and that's kind of what where am at right now in my my journey is less chasing and more attracting and the way you attract things by becoming aligned with those things and working on yourself more than working on outside things to be able to attract what you really are meant for, and really given the universe, given the universe and the highest power, what is God or or whatever you believe in the opportunity to channel you, and you really like, so you can become the purpose you put in this earth. So, a lot of that I think about, and for me, that's really the game that I'm playing. It's it's not really about achievements, but rather what else can I do and how can I prep myself to be at my highest potential?
[00:43:56] spk_0: I'm getting goose bumps man, I just love that description that you're giving of that inner work because I think I'm getting this metaphor in my head of something, it's like an internal garden that rather than sort of looking over the gates of what's happening out there, it's really that what can I do to beautify this garden and just make work on my own inner sphere, this is within my control. Um and I just have to say that as a 44 year old woman, 12 years your senior, I am so excited to see when you're at level 100. I'm so amped to see what the future holds. So, we have one final question I have, I have a million more, but we'll stick with one final question iman and that is um if someone is listening and they're kind of having a moment of holy crap, I totally have some of these self sabotaging beliefs and and I can really, I'm starting to see that this is impacting my business, my opportunities, maybe my relationships as well. Where would you advise them on starting their journey to overcoming self sabotage?
[00:44:58] spk_2: Well, I think the first step, like I said would be to take a step back and maybe pick out, you know, what an area in your life where you feel like you're sabotaging yourself, maybe personal, maybe it's career, maybe it's, you know, family, whatever that may be. And then go through different scenarios where you feel like there are obvious signs that you were, you know, self sabotaging and those obvious signs sometimes could be, you know, procrastinating or putting off something because you just blocked by fear or maybe paralyzed by fear of failure. Um it could be just picking fights with, you know, your friend or your significant other or your family just because you feel like I need to just pick a fight to feel good or because I'm sabotaging, I'm scared of something and instead of addressing that fear, I'm here picking a fight with that person, so maybe that's it. Um maybe you're walking away from things that are becoming harder and harder, maybe your job got harder, maybe your business is more challenging, and instead of facing that challenge and looking at it as an opportunity to grow and to figure out what is what's gone wrong and fixing it and unlock in that next potential of yourself and your business, you're walking away instead. So maybe ask yourself, am I self sabotaging here? Am I just scared? Or is it really like at the point where there's nothing left to do and it's easier to walk away than actually faced this. So there are very obvious signs, um, where you're constantly self sabotaging, another one is just maybe you're on your way to a meeting or you're on your way to something very important, and in your head you're already putting yourself down, Oh, I'm not good enough. Am I really going to do well in this meeting? I am. I even do I deserve to be at that meeting. Am I good enough to carry this kind of operation? That putting yourself down? Talk is very much the core of self sabotage, and that's how it starts. Um, so I think the number one step for people listening is go back, maybe sit with yourself in self reflection. Um, maybe meditate, just go in a quiet room and just have a notebook with you and take almost inventory of certain situations where you feel like, oh, the outcome is not there, but maybe it's because you're self sabotaging as opposed to other external factors, you've been blaming all this time. So maybe you could do a little exercise where on the left side, you have things that you've been blaming on the right side, maybe how I've been self sabotaging, and then look at that, really, study it. And then because of what you're going to have in front of you, you're going to be able to start taking little steps to really undo that self sabotaging and be able to grow into that fear that is holding you back and that is basically leading you to self sabotage. So, to me, I always say, first step is let's do some acknowledging exercises and really understand where and how we're self sabotaging. Once we have those answers, you're able to take a step back and say, okay, instead of doing this, I'm going to do that because I know I'm only self sabotaging because I'm scared of X, y, Z, maybe I'm scared I'm not good at spreadsheets, and that's why I'm not tackling that financial model. So now let me just go and study the financial model and be better at it. It's honestly when you look at it that way, it becomes like a little simple steps that can make a huge difference.
[00:48:22] spk_1: Well, I mean to me, the message that's just jumping out at me here iman is that we can't change what we can't see. So until we take that opportunity to sit and acknowledge what's happening for us, we can't do anything about it.
[00:48:37] spk_2: Yeah, absolutely. And I did that recently myself too, because I started a new project and I've realized that I have this fear of just going back financial models and spreadsheets numbers really to me, I'm like, especially when I'm excited about the vision, I'm like, I don't even want to dive deeper into 20 tabs of spreadsheets. And because I have that fear of that, because I don't think I'm good enough for it. I don't think supposedly I'm good, I'm good enough for numbers or to understand that kind of, you know, world. Then I have been putting it off and putting it off and just not giving it the, the studying and the practicing that it deserves and the preparation it deserves. And so when I'm in meetings trying to talk about this new project, obviously the next questions that come up is the financials and the numbers and I always sabotage myself in these meetings, why, because I can't answer a single question about that financial model. And I know I'm the reason why I'm the one who was not able to do that, because I I was scared of failing to understand that kind of world. And I finally got myself to do it and sat down, I was like, wow, it's not even that hard, this is simple. And now I show up to meetings like ready to take over and I'm confident and I'm even telling people about it before they even ask And that's when, you know, the switch is so easy to make, but it takes one single, you know, revelation uh you know, just self reflection about something you're doing the wrong way or you're not doing it all for you to completely change into someone who shows up with more conviction and more confidence about what they're talking about, about what they're preaching about what their pitching and things like that. So that's just an example on my end. But I know there's so many, you know, across the board and when people sit down in self reflection, it will come up to you. I can assure you, especially if you get it on your own head and become very objective with how you evaluate the things you do. Another thing I want to also um drive home is that you can also tell your priorities by your day. So if you wake up every day and the first thing that you do is anything but the thing you're most passionate about, then clearly you're not taking it as a priority because usually when you wake up, you have your little morning routine of course, but if you don't go straight into it, then you're putting it off. Clearly because subconsciously you're scared of it, you don't want to do it and that already tells you you're not putting as a priority. If you're not putting something as a priority, it's not going to work out the outcome you expect out of it is not going to be matching the amount of work you've given into it. So priorities of course. So evaluate your day, how do you spend your day? Would you spend the most energy and then how can you restructure the that moving forward to give priority to the things that matter the most to you, whether it's family, kids, job project side house or whatever, you're trying to really outshine yourself in. That should be the first thing you do every every day after your morning routine
[00:51:28] spk_0: in Mommy's just absolute nuggets of really practical, helpful advice. I think that people can really implement pretty much immediately. So thank you so much for sharing those and I would add to that. Get your hands on a copy of the glass ledge ASAP. And and read it as well because it's such a brilliant way of again really practical sort of manual almost for going through and addressing these different sort of facets and ways that we can self sabotage and the ways that we can also then step into our power. So thank you so much for your time with us today and we are human leaders. It's been an unmitigated delight to speak with you. Thank
[00:52:05] spk_2: you so much for having me. This was so
[00:52:07] spk_0: wonderful and I'm excited to hear the podcast when it comes out. Thank you for joining us in this powerful conversation with iman we were all aware of the external glass ceiling that exists and yet these internal versions are glass ledges can be just as inhibited in our quest to live full and authentic lives. I loved how many practical tips iman offers for starting to break through these ledges and find that deep sense of unmitigated confidence in our true selves. We hope the demands, clarity, vulnerability and courage inspire you as much as it does us to continue the inner work of breaking through self sabotage. So we can truly embrace our power and create our success. You can find and follow iman's work at sway www dot S W A Y dot com and purchase the glass slides wherever you buy your books.
[00:53:06] spk_1: Thank you so much for sharing this space with us. If you are ready to join us and be part of the human leaders community find us at www dot We are human leaders dot com. Thanks for being on the journey with us and we'll see you next time.