Forged in Fire: How LGBTQIA+ Leaders Create Impact through Adversity with Bree Fram and Liz Cavallaro
Bree Fram - Active Duty Colonel and Astronautical Engineer in the United States Space Force, Author and Podcaster
Colonel Bree Fram is an active duty astronautical engineer in the US Space Force, and one of the highest ranking out transgender officers in the United States military. She co-leads the Department of the Air Force LGBTQ+ Initiatives Team and was a president of SPARTA, an organization dedicated to the support and professional development of transgender service members.
Bree’s writing has been featured in The Washington Post, Military Times, Inkstick, and LGBTQ Nation. She’s a keynote speaker on leadership, diversity and inclusion, and LGBTQ+ topics, and along with Liz, co-hosts the Forged in Fire: LGBTQ+ Leadership podcast. Bree is the co-editor of the book With Honor and Integrity: Transgender Troops in Their Own Words, which came out in 2021. Bree is based in Reston, Virginia.
Liz Cavallaro - Associate Professor of Leadership Development at the U.S. Naval War College, Author and Podcaster
Dr. Liz Cavallaro is an adult development scholar and professional executive coach, who specializes in helping leaders thrive through the development of enhanced cognitive capacity. Through her work she’s observed the powerful impacts of adversity on the development of leaders with unique personal and professional journeys. Forging Queer Leaders has provided her the opportunity to combine her professional expertise in leader development with her personal dedication to advocacy and support of the LGBTQ+ community.
Liz’s research has been presented to the International Leadership Association and published in the Oxford Handbook of Meaningful Work and The Journal of Adult Development. Liz is based in Newport, Rhode Island.
All humans go through transitions, and many of us experience challenges that cause us to question who we are and evolve into a more authentic version of ourselves.
This is certainly true for every member of the LGBTQIA+ community, who face adversity not once, but as an ongoing experience, in a plethora of ways and situations. And yet, these same experiences can forge incredible leadership qualities.
Qualities which have never been more needed in leadership.
In this podcast conversation we speak with Bree Fram and Dr Liz Cavallaro, the authors of the incredible new book, “Forging Queer Leaders, How the LGBTQIA+ community creates impact from adversity.” We explore how ‘crucible’ experiences can give rise to an array of key leadership attributes, and the powerful skills that the inner work inherent to coming out and gender transition can grant us.
Bree and Liz’s wisdom, expertise and candor left us both deeply moved, informed and inspired. We hope this conversation shifts your thinking about the nature of ‘transitions’ and challenges and gives you deeper insight into the lived experience and positive leadership impact of the LGBTQ+ community, as it did for us.
One note, we use the term LGBTQ+ during this conversation to reflect the diversity that exists within the spectrum of sexual orientation and gender identity aside from heterosexual and cisgender.
Learn more about Bree Fram
Bree is currently stationed at the Pentagon to lead space acquisition policy development for the Department of the Air Force. Prior to recommissioning into the Space Force in 2021, she served 18 years in a wide variety of Air Force positions including a Research and Development command position and an oversight role for all Air Force security cooperation activity with Iraq. In earlier assignments, Bree served in the Air Force Directorate of Strategic Plans, as a Legislative Fellow at the US Capitol on the staff of Congresswoman Madeleine Bordallo, several tours as a program manager for satellite and technology programs, and deployed to Qatar and Iraq as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Bree came out publicly as transgender on the day the transgender ban in the military was dropped in 2016. She transitioned while in a command position and served through the re-imposition of a transgender ban from 2019-2021. She is currently one of the highest ranking out transgender officers in the United States military.
Bree has appeared on national and international media, including ABC and NBC Nightly news, France 24, BBC, PBS News Hour, and NPR’s All Things Considered, Morning Edition, and 1A. Her writing has been featured in the Washington Post, Military Times, Inkstick, and LGBTQ Nation.
Bree is an editor of With Honor and Integrity: Transgender Troops in Their Own Words from NYU press which released in November 2021 and an author of Forging Queer Leaders: How the LGBTQIA+ Community Creates Impact from Adversity, from Jessica Kingsley Publishers.
Bree has been married for 19 years to Peg Fram and they have two kids.
Learn more about Liz Cavallaro
Dr. Liz Cavallaro is an Executive Coach, Adult Development Scholar, Educator, and Leader Development Practitioner. Her research interests include a range of topics relevant to the development of leaders, including cognitive development, coaching, self-awareness, organizational development, wellbeing, meaningful work, and eudaimonia.
Dr. Cavallaro is currently a tenured Associate Professor of Leader Development at the U.S. Naval War College (USNWC), in Newport, RI. At USNWC she conducts research, builds curriculum, and teaches courses in the College of Leadership & Ethics. She works with mid- and senior-level Navy leaders to build self-awareness and enhance cognitive capacity through assessment-based and developmental coaching approaches.
Prior to her USNWC Appointment, Dr. Cavallaro was an adjunct professor for the Women as Empowered Learners and Leaders program at Bay Path University in Burlington, MA, where she taught courses in Career and Personal Development, and Leadership in Practice. As a doctoral teaching assistant at George Washington University, she facilitated sessions in Leadership Theory and Research. Her dissertation research was an exploration of the experience of compassion fatigue and employee wellbeing among helping professionals. She holds an Ed.D. in Human and Organizational Learning and an M.A. in Organizational Management from George Washington University, and a B.A. in Organizational Communication and Public Relations from SUNY New Paltz.
She has been published in The Journal of Adult Development, The Learning Organization, the Oxford Handbook of Meaningful Work, Qualitative Health Research, Academy of Human Resource Development Advances, and the South Asian Journal of Global Business Research. She has presented scholarly papers at academic conferences such as the Joint Science of Teaching & Learning Forum, the International Leadership Association Conference, the Ethnographic and Qualitative Researchers Conference, the APA Work, Stress and Health Conference, the Academy of Human Resource Development Conference, and the University Forum for Human Resource Development.
Learn more about Bree Fram and Liz Cavallaro, and find their new book here:
Connect with Bree Fram and Liz Cavallro on LinkedIn.
Find their podcast ‘Forged in Fire’ here.
Get your copy of their book ‘Forging Queer Leaders: How the LGBTQIA+ Community Creates Impact from Adversity’ here.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Sally Clarke: All humans go through transitions, and many of us experience challenges that cause us to question who we are and evolve into a more authentic version of ourselves. This is certainly true for every member of the LGBTQIA plus community who face adversity not once, but as an ongoing experience in a plethora of ways and situations.
[00:00:29] Sally Clarke: And yet these same experiences can forge incredible leadership qualities, qualities which have never been more urgently needed. I'm Sally Clark and today Alexa Sana and I are speaking with Bree Fram and Dr. Liz Cavallaro, the authors of the incredible new book, Forging queer leaders, how the LGBTQIA plus community creates impact from adversity.
[00:00:51] Sally Clarke: We explore how crucible experiences can give rise to an array of key leadership attributes. and the powerful skills that the inner work inherent to coming out and gender transition can grant us. Dr. Liz Cavallaro is an Executive Coach, Adult Development Scholar, Educator, and Leader Development Practitioner.
[00:01:08] Sally Clarke: Dr. Cavallaro is currently a Tenured Associate Professor of Leader Development at the U. S. Naval War College. Bree Fram is a Keynote Speaker and Active Duty Colonel. and astronautical engineer in the United States Space Force. Bree also co leads the Department of the Air Force LGBTQ plus initiatives team dedicated to eliminating barriers to LGBTQ plus military service in the air and space force.
[00:01:32] Sally Clarke: Bree came out publicly as transgender on the day the transgender ban in the military was dropped in 2016. She transitioned while in a command position. And served through the re imposition of a transgender ban from 2019 to 2021. She is currently one of the highest ranking out transgender officers in the United States military.
[00:01:52] Sally Clarke: Bree and Liz's wisdom, expertise, and candor left both Alexis and I deeply moved, informed, and inspired. We hope this conversation shifts your thinking around the nature of transitions and challenges, and gives you a deeper insight into the lived experience and positive leadership impact of the LGBTQ plus community, as it did for us.
[00:02:11] Sally Clarke: One note, we use the term LGBTQ plus During this conversation to reflect the diversity that exists within the spectrum of sexual orientation and gender identity, aside from heterosexual and cisgender. Let's dive in.
[00:02:26] Alexis Zahner: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Bree and Liz. It's an absolute privilege to have you both with us here today.
[00:02:33] Alexis Zahner: And as we begin all of our podcast conversations, our first question is about understanding the journey that's brought each of you to the work that you're doing now. And I'll throw this question to Liz to start. Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself, Liz, and what's brought you to this work that you're doing now?
[00:02:51] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely.
[00:02:52] Liz Cavallaro: Thanks so much. And thank you for having us today. So I am a professor. I teach at the U. S. Naval War College and many people do not know what that is. And I didn't know what it was before I started working there. So I'll give just a little bit of an explanation. Most folks know that. Military services have a school where students go when they are first joining.
[00:03:13] Liz Cavallaro: So when they're generally that, you know, 18 to 20 year old time frame, and they go and get a four year undergraduate degree. And then alongside that, they are becoming officers in that respective military. Many people don't know that there are also war colleges, which are meant for later on in the career.
[00:03:29] Liz Cavallaro: So folks who 15 or 20 years, usually. are coming back to school, getting a master's degree in national security, and they're preparing for going into much more advanced senior leadership roles, roles that are characterized by the need to give strategic advice to senior leaders, as well as to work jointly, so across the different military services, along with their civilian counterpart agencies.
[00:03:54] Liz Cavallaro: And so at those schools, the schools are themselves joint, meaning I teach at the Naval War College, which belongs to the Navy, but we have students from every single service as well as the civilian counterpart agencies. And so they all come together. It's a 10 month school and they get their master's degree.
[00:04:10] Liz Cavallaro: What I do there is teach a leader development program and Bree, who at the time of coming into the school in 2020 was a Air Force officer and then later made the switch to Space Force. She joined that program and the focus was to study leadership and leader development. And in particular, the students had to write a research paper on a topic of their choosing that they felt was relevant to leader development.
[00:04:34] Liz Cavallaro: And so when Bree was sharing with myself and other program faculty members, her brainstorm for what she wanted to. She shared an interest in looking at the experiences of queer leaders, as well as other marginalized or minority groups of leaders, and how their personal journeys and their developmental journeys that they went through in their lives fortified their leadership skills and built certain leadership capacities that allowed them to be particularly effective.
[00:05:01] Liz Cavallaro: In today's complex leadership environments and the kinds of challenges that they're facing. And so when she shared this with us, she wrote us an email and I wrote back and said, you know, if you want the faculty member with the greatest subject matter expertise on these topics, it's probably not me. If you want the faculty member who's going to give you the best guidance on how to write a really high quality scholarly research paper, it is definitely not me.
[00:05:23] Liz Cavallaro: But if you want the person who's going to be most passionate about this topic, it is Absolutely me. So please select me as your advisor. And she did.
[00:05:32] Alexis Zahner: I love it. I can't help but think that's almost like an American's Got Talent, you know, hitting the buzzer and turning around and then picking the person you go with.
[00:05:40] Alexis Zahner: I love it. Brilliant. Thank you, Liz. And Bree, I'd love to hear your journey. Obviously, we now know how you and Liz met. Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey before that?
[00:05:49] Bree Fram: Absolutely. So, I grew up never thinking that a military career would be in my future. Despite some amazing history in my family of my grandfather's service and service of people before them, it just never was there for me.
[00:06:04] Bree Fram: So I started off, Wanting to be a paleontologist, tell a friend of mine made me watch an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation with him and I wanted to be Geordi from that moment. I wanted to be the one that made the warp engines go and helped humanity expand into stars. So I got a degree in aerospace engineering and I started looking for jobs.
[00:06:24] Bree Fram: But that was in 2001, and the United States got attacked that summer as I was applying for jobs. And all of a sudden, I wanted to give back. I wanted to be part of something larger than myself. I wanted to defend the freedoms and opportunities I'd been given by luck of being born where I was. And that became really important to me.
[00:06:44] Bree Fram: So despite knowing there was something about myself that the military thought was not okay. I joined the service, and I entered the Air Force, and I served for a significant period of time under two different sets of policies. One, a law, don't ask, don't tell, that prevented lesbians, gays, and bisexuals from serving, and a medical policy that prevented transgender people from serving in the military.
[00:07:08] Bree Fram: And I did so for 13 years prior to the transgender ban ending in 2016, at which point I came out. And this is probably something worth getting into in a little later, a little deeper way. But I was welcomed by my colleagues. And from there, went on my journey to become my authentic self, uh, was doing well, made it to the point where you hear about getting selected to attend war college, get a degree, and write this paper about military minority experiences and how it made them amazing leaders.
[00:07:39] Bree Fram: And from there, as you know, We wrapped up school and I had the opportunity to say, Liz, I think there's a lot more here. Would you like to write a book? And to have her say yes to that as well was truly incredible. And so now serving as my authentic self and being able to have the opportunity to do this work and talk about leaders, leadership development, and really why LGBTQ plus leaders are so needed in today's world is a true honor for me to be a part of.
[00:08:10] Sally Clarke: Thank you, Bree. Thank you both so much. And I think the book itself is also such a really beautiful sort of intersection of that leadership development side of things and the stories and experiences that really go to show exactly what you just alluded to Bree, the incredible need for LGBTQ plus leadership in our world right now.
[00:08:29] Sally Clarke: And we certainly will come back to delve a little bit deeper into your own experience, um, coming out in your reception from your colleagues. But I'd love to first delve into the concept of crucible experiences, which you refer to in the book. And I noticed in a lot of the reviews around the book as well, it seems like a term that's really resonated for a lot of people.
[00:08:48] Sally Clarke: I'm wondering what they are. So what crucible experiences are and how and why LGBTQ plus leaders develop their leadership superpowers out of these experiences?
[00:08:59] Liz Cavallaro: Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you so much for that. And we have found that that term has really resonated with all of the folks that we've interviewed with and conversations we've had.
[00:09:07] Liz Cavallaro: And we've also found that it's one that is really relevant to all people. So I can talk a little bit about where that term comes from as it relates to studying leadership and studying development. And then maybe Bree can kind of add in a little bit about how we saw that playing out in particular in the LGBTQ community.
[00:09:26] Liz Cavallaro: So when we say crucible experience, we're basically talking about going through something in life where. On the other side of that experience, you are different. Life is different. You have been transformed in some way that is substantive and meaningful. And crucibles can have a very negative connotation to them.
[00:09:45] Liz Cavallaro: They can have very positive. They are likely a mix of a lot of different things. But regardless of what kind of crucible, that's kind of the Key characteristic is that you are altered in some way and when you are on the other side of this experience, you have to find a new way. It's who am I going to be now after this?
[00:10:03] Liz Cavallaro: How am I going to live now at this point? You know, how do I navigate my world in a way that is distinct from however I navigated it before this crucible? And so crucibles alter us in such a fundamental And powerful way that a lot of learning and growth can potentially arise from that because we have to kind of find our new way after this transformation has occurred.
[00:10:24] Liz Cavallaro: And so what I study in particular, as it relates to how leaders develop, is how we enhance leadership. It's our cognitive capacity, basically how we become more sophisticated in how we think and make sense of the world. And so that maturation that occurs for us cognitively, what is it that allows for that to occur?
[00:10:43] Liz Cavallaro: And one of the things, one of the catalysts for that kind of development is going through a crucible, assuming that when we go through that, or after we go through that, we rise to the occasion and meet that change and that transformation with transformation in ourselves and how we make sense I
[00:11:10] Bree Fram: got to go back all the way to one material science course that I took as an undergrad.
[00:11:16] Bree Fram: When you think about things like how does iron become steel, it's through this crucible moment through this heating experience, but then also. cooling back down. It's not that you heat it so hot that it just melts apart and you can never reform. You're different on the other side of these moments, but in many ways, you're in the same shape or form that you were, but your mental state has changed.
[00:11:42] Bree Fram: And a lot of people experience these crucible Everyone experiences them. Many of the things that queer leaders go through are the same crucibles that other minorities go through through discrimination or stigmatization. But for LGBTQ folks, there's a couple specific experiences that we can look at that are really valuable at figuring out how they lead, both as an individual and within organizations, and that's coming out to yourself, coming out to others, and for trans people, as a whole.
[00:12:11] Bree Fram: Transition. And those are huge, life changing things where you have to think about yourself differently and a lot of cases there's so much introspection that happens you really have to do that work to look inside yourself and ask who am I? And then when you get the answer to who am I, show it to the world.
[00:12:31] Bree Fram: And that can be huge because the world, for most of your life, has probably told you, You are something else. And so that moment of realizing that you're different and then doing something about it is dramatic in the lives of LGBTQ leaders.
[00:12:48] Alexis Zahner: And I think this term crucible, and as you've just explained it, Bree. and we should actually let everyone know the title of your book is Forging Queer Leaders.
[00:12:56] Alexis Zahner: And I love this because it's that crucible moment is this idea that when we go under such immense pressure or heat or that. Sort of thing that occurs to metal when it's put under that pressure actually becomes more solid and has a higher level of fortitude as a result. So I love this idea that you use the word forging in the language there.
[00:13:15] Alexis Zahner: It just felt very empowering and a very sort of, it signifies strength, which I just really resonated for me reading your work. And just one word that. Kept coming back to me when I was reading the part of the book that was talking about this maturation of an adult development was that this idea that these crucible moments are expansive.
[00:13:33] Alexis Zahner: And I just wanted to sort of pause on that word because I think for me as an individual, it felt Like, it's an opportunity to grow into something that's bigger than what we already are. And so I loved the use of that word and I felt like it was an invitation to understand this through an opportunity to become something bigger than what we are now.
[00:13:55] Alexis Zahner: Was that word used specifically to try and evoke that in the reader or can you tell us a little bit more around this idea of how these moments lead to our expansion?
[00:14:04] Liz Cavallaro: Yeah, the expansion piece, it's referring to multiple different things that actually happen to us when we go through this particular kind of development.
[00:14:12] Liz Cavallaro: A lot of things get bigger, essentially, and it's the kind of development that isn't just adding new stuff in like learning a new skill or gaining a tool or getting some kind of information or knowledge. It's Those things might be happening, but alongside that we are expanding, we're transforming and creating a greater capacity inside of ourselves for what we might do with those tools or skills or knowledge.
[00:14:37] Liz Cavallaro: And so we have a broader scope, a wider perspective. A larger array of lenses that we can look at situations in the world through more options and possibilities come into our mind when we are facing a challenge or when we're trying to navigate our way through something. So there's all of this increasing or expanding that's going on where it's not just I've added a bunch of new tools to my toolkit, but I've made the kit much larger than it was before.
[00:15:04] Liz Cavallaro: And so now not only can I fit more in, which is great, but I can also have a better. more organized toolkit, if you will. I have more space to look at these tools and turn them around and look at them from different perspectives and maybe figure out a different way to use them than how I used them before, or find more types of scenarios that I can apply them to.
[00:15:23] Liz Cavallaro: And that, so that expanding is really all encompassing and The link there to going through a crucible experience and facing something that alters us is that especially when we face something that's incredibly challenging, it's a lot for us to handle. It's perhaps overwhelming. If we don't expand, it's like we don't have the space for that.
[00:15:46] Liz Cavallaro: We get overwhelmed. I talk about it as we experience a churn. Right? There's a lot happening. There's a lot going on. We're really being inundated with it. We are, we feel like we're, we can't get out from under it. And the only way to face that and be able to handle it and have the resilience that we need to move through is that expansion that needs to occur.
[00:16:05] Liz Cavallaro: And so some of these experiences, even the very adverse ones, The rising to the occasion that I mentioned earlier is this expanding. It's becoming big enough to handle all of the complexity and the things that are coming our way and potentially overwhelming us. And so instead of then becoming overwhelmed or becoming burnt out or breaking, we have that expansion.
[00:16:26] Liz Cavallaro: And there's sort of a flexibility and agility applied in that as well, right? Because we can kind of stretch to encompass and handle whatever it is that we're facing versus becoming brittle and brittle. becoming broken by it.
[00:16:36] Bree Fram: And in so many leadership classes or coaching experiences or even therapy, what people are trying to build is a growth mindset that you can be better tomorrow than you are today.
[00:16:50] Bree Fram: day. And we think that's a lot of what happens in these LGBTQ journeys, particularly from what we talked about already, that work you do on yourself to say, look, despite the expectations on me, I know I'm not yet my best self. And through coming out or through transition, I can be better. better. And so that translates to so many other experiences that LGBTQ leaders have in the workplace or in their organizations, where they not only have that view for themselves, that tomorrow they can be better, but so can their team.
[00:17:24] Bree Fram: And it translates to that. sort of developmental environment for others as well. How can we be better together? You know, we realize that we've gone through some terrible things, but that's not who we are, or we may have had a failure, but that doesn't mean that we're going to fail the next time. How can we do better?
[00:17:42] Bree Fram: How can we make sure that we succeed the next time or the time after that through this continuous process of growth and expansion?
[00:17:49] Sally Clarke: I can imagine That particularly in these really intense, crucible experiences, which may even feel almost, I can imagine existential in some ways, there's a really a deep shift.
[00:17:59] Sally Clarke: And I can imagine there's a lot of different emotions that would come up, but that because of we overcome that, there's also the lesson, the experiential lesson of I'm capable of this shift of this profound journey and this intense work. And I feel like that can also give ourselves such a profound lesson in risk management going forward as well.
[00:18:18] Sally Clarke: And you talk about this in the book as well, but like What I considered a risk before, I'm actually looking at that differently now because of this experience.
[00:18:25] Bree Fram: Yeah, we love talking about the fact that coming out is like getting master's level credit in risk and opportunity management. And for people that may not understand and haven't been through this experience themselves, also realizing that coming out is not a one time process.
[00:18:43] Bree Fram: Coming out happens over and over again by referring to your spouse, or your significant other, and using their pronouns in casual conversation, or putting a picture of your family on your desk. And in countless other little ways, it happens again and again. And in many of those cases, the choice is conscious for people, but it's draining because you have to think about some of those things.
[00:19:08] Bree Fram: Am I safe? to come out in this situation. If I do, what are the consequences going to be? Are they going to be negative or positive? And so you're constantly doing that calculus in your head of what are the risks or the opportunities? Is it going to be likely to happen? And if it is, Is it good or bad and how good or bad is it?
[00:19:31] Bree Fram: So working through that process merely from the coming out perspective leads to a view of thinking about those risks and opportunities in your workplace and any other social situation where you have to think about what are other people going to react? What do I know about them? How do I think about them?
[00:19:48] Bree Fram: factor those different perspectives into what I'm doing. So I think it builds a skill that is really valuable, especially when you turn it away from that protecting myself from the risks to seeking the opportunities. How do I realize what other people are thinking and turn that into a way where I can see the advantages that I could gain my organization, my team could gain in this situation by maybe changing how we're doing things just a little bit.
[00:20:14] Bree Fram: So. An amazing skill that's built through something that was initially very negative.
[00:20:18] Alexis Zahner: You're very right, Bree. And I'd love us to continue down this path, if you wouldn't mind, for a little while. And that is to understand some of the other benefits and skills that people from the LGBTQ plus community had to learn, I guess, throughout their life and how this benefits their leadership.
[00:20:34] Alexis Zahner: And in particular, this idea of transformational leadership. There were so many, so many things. beautiful stories in the book from people of varying different backgrounds in terms of, you know, positions they held, where they were even from, which was an interesting lens to look at as well. So I'd like to ask that question of you first, Bree as someone who's also a leader, can you help us understand a little bit more how your experiences contribute to your ability to be a transformational leader?
[00:20:58] Bree Fram: One of the biggest things I like about transformational leadership is the individualized consideration that you give to others, that you realize. Not everyone is the same. It's not the old transactional system of you do something for me and I'm going to do something for you, or the system where, you know, it's an assembly line and I can put any person in and they're going to do the work.
[00:21:20] Bree Fram: So much of the work that we do in organizations, particularly at the leadership and management levels, It's really about taking care of people and realizing that people have unique skill sets, different abilities, and different motivations. So as a leader, one of the things that I look for is what matters.
[00:21:43] Bree Fram: to someone? Is it they are looking for time off, public recognition, money? What is it that makes them really want to do better, contribute in ways that are meaningful to the team? And you can't know that without actually doing it. Asking questions or sometimes you can observe some of this like if I'm praising someone in public and they are shrinking away from it Well, maybe I should instead call that person into my office in private and have a conversation with them Thanking them for what they're doing and not put that on them So there's some observational skills in there But in many cases it's about getting to know the people that work for you understanding who they are How they operate and how you can all work better as a team so that those pieces fit.
[00:22:29] Bree Fram: And that individualized consideration is, to me, one of the most important things you can do as a transformational leader.
[00:22:35] Sally Clarke: That's brilliant, Bree. That's a beautiful point. Yeah, and I think it's so You know, powerful because too often we have this idea that humans are capital and that's all sort of, you know, very replaceable and it's just numbers.
[00:22:46] Sally Clarke: But I think often leaders have this idea that taking an individualized approach will take more time and perhaps even compromise their role as a leader. Particularly if they come from a very hierarchical environment, but given your wealth of experience in the military and the fact that transformational leadership is also in this respect, something you're able to adopt there and very successfully really speaks to its power.
[00:23:07] Sally Clarke: I was wondering if you could perhaps. Share, if you will, an experience that you've sort of had in that way, in that particular sense in the military.
[00:23:15] Bree Fram: Well, a few of those examples that I give are, are things that I have used of trying to figure out what motivates people. Do you want time off or do you want an award and a medal?
[00:23:25] Bree Fram: What are those things that really make you give your most? And that's what it's all about from a leadership perspective. Not only do you want to take care of people, but when you take care of people, they tend to take care of the organization. And that is ridiculously important. One way that I've utilized this skill is thinking about how do we make people feel that.
[00:23:48] Bree Fram: Not only do they matter, do I care about them, but that who they are is important. And so that's very much in getting to know the person first. I've just started a new job and one of the things I've tried to do is, I don't want to sit down with people and say, Here are my expectations, here's what you have to do.
[00:24:07] Bree Fram: I don't want to start there. I want to start with, who are you? What are you passionate about? What recharges your batteries? And how can I be there to help and support you? I want to have that conversation first before I move to, okay, now that I know a little bit about the job, here's what I need. from you in terms of work performance and expectations.
[00:24:30] Bree Fram: So I really use it to try and understand people and then make sure I keep asking those questions. So if circumstances change, if their life situation changes, I know how to better support them through the challenges that they're inevitably going to face outside of work. They're going to affect who they are and how they interact at work.
[00:24:50] Sally Clarke: Amazing. Liz, do you
[00:24:51] Liz Cavallaro: have anything to add, of course, with your academic expertise? One thing that kind of stands out to me about that discussion is that when you think about transformational leadership, you know, there's plenty of different definitions out there, and not everyone loves transformational leadership because it is.
[00:25:06] Liz Cavallaro: Talking about creating something new, doing something substantive and significant, right? Getting people to not just perform and do the job and, and get things done, but really to create change, to create a dramatically different output or scenario for a team or organization than they otherwise would have in, in day to day business, right?
[00:25:28] Liz Cavallaro: And so, Because of that, like Bree. mentioned, a lot of people think it's going to take a lot of time, that, you know, you're going to have to put a lot of effort into it, especially that individualized consideration piece. And a lot of folks just feel that it's not relevant or well aligned to every kind of organization or every kind of mission, and that it's not necessarily worth the time, or it's not necessarily the kind of leadership that's most appropriate.
[00:25:50] Liz Cavallaro: And I think that's because people see it as, you know, It's being so incredibly difficult to ask people to change in a substantive way, right? Transformation is change. So asking people to change how they come to work every day, how they do things every day, to change the outputs or the impacts that they're having as a team or an organization.
[00:26:09] Liz Cavallaro: And that is scary. And human beings are biologically hardwired to want to avoid that for actual evolutionary reasons. that discomfort and feeling of destabilization that goes along with trying to change. And so people, you know, push back on that and they're afraid of that. And so a transformational leader has a pretty big hill to climb because they're trying to get people to literally go against their instinct and their nature of wanting to stay in a comfort zone and wanting to continue on a path that is predictable, comfortable, controllable, that they feel they can align with.
[00:26:42] Liz Cavallaro: And so. The connection that is made, and I think this is where LGBTQ leaders, for a couple of reasons, have this capacity. One is that, in that they have gone through their own journey, and they are now living openly and authentically. People look at that, and they see that authenticity, and they feel that they can trust and connect to them.
[00:27:01] Liz Cavallaro: They understand why this person is asking them to do something, even if what they're asking them to do seems pointless. pretty major or pretty uncomfortable, but they get it, right? They feel like the person's telling them the truth, that they're showing them their real self, their real motivation, and they understand why they're being asked to do this thing, even if it's very difficult.
[00:27:18] Liz Cavallaro: Another is that they see that they themselves have obviously faced adversity, gone through crucibles, Um, and then one of the other things that really sticks out to me is the fact that, you know, when you look at a person, you know, they've grown as a result of it, right? So they have that inspiration right there in front of them of this person has done the hard work.
[00:27:30] Liz Cavallaro: They themselves have gone through change and survived and thrived. So now you have that example and inspiration right in front of you that you can look at and say, I want to go along with you. Stands out that a lot of our contributors shared is just the way that people wanna open up to them and tell them their story.
[00:27:48] Liz Cavallaro: Right. So, you know, Bree. talked about understanding, using individualized consideration. You have to understand what people want, what motivates them and makes them tick. But, and part of that Yes, is asking the great questions and sitting down in the right way, like she just described. It's also about the person's willingness and comfort level to be fully open and honest and transparent about their needs, their motivations, their values, sometimes some really kind of deep seated or personal things that make them tick.
[00:28:15] Liz Cavallaro: To want to be open and honest. with someone, especially in like a hierarchical leader situation, right? There's a lot of potential barriers there to me wanting to open up in that way and be that vulnerable to show my real self. And so because I see that the leader does that, and because I see that they are someone who has gone through these experiences, I might feel a little bit safer.
[00:28:35] Liz Cavallaro: more safe or more comfortable being honest about my own stuff, right? And unpacking that in front of them and with them. And so that's then going to get to a place where they really understand what makes me tick and can be that much more effective at motivating me and helping me move towards whatever this major, probably uncomfortable transformation is that we're going toward.
[00:28:55] Bree Fram: Liz hit on some amazing points there. And one that I have a story about in relation to my transition and the way it affected my leadership style that prior to transition, I apparently, though I thought I was sending vibes into the world that said, I am approachable. I want to hear your story. I want to know what's going on.
[00:29:16] Bree Fram: I was not, and I was acting like I had a shield up in front of me at all times. And that I was in some way perfect. And far from the case, because I'm a nerd that makes a ton of mistakes all the time, and I want to know what's going on. But the people junior to me didn't see that. And as a leader, if you don't know what's going on with your people, you don't know what their problems are, you can't help them solve it.
[00:29:39] Bree Fram: And through my transition, it appeared that I revealed some of my humanity, some of my vulnerability, that I had challenges. myself. And in doing so, all of a sudden, my folks wanted to come talk to me. They wanted to bring me their challenges. And it was amazing because we could work through things that we never would have been able to together before.
[00:30:03] Bree Fram: And so as leaders, we need to reframe anything that makes us look vulnerable, not as a weakness. But as a strength, because everyone has those types of vulnerabilities and what they are is really just, again, our humanity and a way that shows that we're open to connection and it helped us form those really strong bonds that are so critical to high performing teams.
[00:30:25] Alexis Zahner: That's such a powerful insight, Bree. Thank you so much for sharing that. And one other thing that I, when I was reading the book and some of the earlier examples, when you were talking about the sort of mental complexity model as we develop and one that stood out to me was this idea that. People from the LGBTQ plus community also have a capacity to perhaps recognize patterns across differences that maybe those of us who haven't had those experiences would consider to be not reconcilable.
[00:30:53] Alexis Zahner: And the one example that I was reading was a person named Austin Wilson, who I believe is a U S. U. S. Army General. Correct me if I'm wrong and he grew up in quite a religious small town in Texas as a gay man. And really I guess had this experience of trying to discover who he was, but then reconcile that again upright against the upbringing he had had and how drastically different that was.
[00:31:15] Alexis Zahner: I can't help but think as an individual being led by someone who can. Give me the space to hold my own beliefs, but also hold the space for other beliefs is something that we just do not see being very easily done, especially when it feels threatening and challenging to us. So I'd love to hear sort of both of your perspectives on that as well.
[00:31:34] Alexis Zahner: Perhaps Liz from the research side and then Bree from your own experience, if you could help us unpack this idea that this is also another huge opportunity for us to understand how we can do Yeah, I mean, you
[00:31:45] Liz Cavallaro: really Really highlighted why we don't see a lot of that because it is often seen as threatening and challenging to us, right?
[00:31:53] Liz Cavallaro: So in general another kind of human nature thing, right? We have these views values beliefs opinions ideas that make us up and a lot of these things feel so firm and permanent and stable that they give us a sense of comfort and confidence because it's like I know who I am and what I believe in and how to Navigate my world because I have these things things and they make me up.
[00:32:16] Liz Cavallaro: They're my foundation that I kind of stand on and enter the world from and they're this like fortifying thing for me and so anything that feels like it comes up against that or questions that or threatens that is going to be really uncomfortable for us and we're going to want to reject that because it's literally painful.
[00:32:31] Liz Cavallaro: It's literally like a tearing of the self, right? So if we're coming up against something that feels very opposite or feels like it challenges. Or disconfirms a belief or a value that we hold, it really feels like it tears us apart in that way. And we feel that we're now on shaky ground. We don't have that firm foundation anymore.
[00:32:49] Liz Cavallaro: And that's really, really uncomfortable and really scary for most people. And what the, the, the, The adult development kind of framework that we focused on in particular shows is that when people become much more sophisticated and complex in how they think and how they make sense of the world, they do have that skill set to look across multiple different perspectives or look through different lenses and even look across seemingly disconnected or disparate or even conflicting ideas and see patterns, themes, or trends, and be able to draw those out and notice those, even when it seems like there's complete disconnection or even paradox between ideas.
[00:33:27] Liz Cavallaro: And so the ability then to work with multiple different people from dramatically different backgrounds or cultures or perspectives, And be able to find commonality, both with your own and their views, or across, you know, different folks views. If you're trying to kind of negotiate differences, or improve interpersonal connections, or resolve conflicts, right?
[00:33:47] Liz Cavallaro: Any of those key leadership skills. The more sophisticated one is in their own thinking, or the more mentally complex, as we say it, the more they're able to identify those things. And I think that LGBTQ leaders, because of the spaces that they've had to operate in, where they've had to look at things through perhaps their own authentic perspective, but then a different perspective that the world is asking them to look through or, uh, inhabit because of who they expect them to be, especially like before coming out of the closet or before transition, things like that.
[00:34:18] Liz Cavallaro: And then also the need to code switch, right? So there are experiences where either I'm not safe to come out, or I need to convey something about myself that meets certain expectations in order to be safe in this environment, or in order to make a connection with people who are dramatically different from me or can't accept this.
[00:34:37] Liz Cavallaro: And so that ability to engage in that code switching, then also hones that skill even further to put on a different perspective and look through that different lens and be able to think about. think about how multiple different people might view the same issue and also be able to even see the connections where the rest of us might just see total disconnection and chaos and recipe for conflict.
[00:34:58] Liz Cavallaro: So to be able to see those things and then of course someone who's trans has that additional experience of having lived in the world from different gender perspectives and then brings that ability to see both of those elements. in any situation that they're facing as well.
[00:35:13] Bree Fram: I think one of the really important things here in leading in a modern context or even a multicultural context that could be the military certainly and it's certainly one of the advantages that I think the United States has had for so long and that we've brought so many perspectives together and managed to weave some sort of relatively cohesive whole out of them in what we do and to do that Well, you have to be able to have this ability to understand that other perspectives exist, and because they exist, they are not wrong.
[00:35:45] Bree Fram: And in many cases, we could think of this like someone who holds very strict religious beliefs about what they can do and what is okay for them. Now, if you take that worldview and say, because I believe these things, I believe these things You have to believe them as well. That's a recipe for conflict.
[00:36:03] Bree Fram: But if you have that belief, this is what it means to me, and I realize you have a different perspective, and it's okay for you to hold that perspective, there's a very different environment that you're all of a sudden operating in. And if you can do that for multiple different perspectives, multiple different backgrounds and sources of input, and able to hold these ideas that might be different and examine them all, You might be able to find the one that works best for the context that you're in, or use one to modify another to come up with the best solution.
[00:36:35] Bree Fram: So it really is about this ability to say, I have a perspective, but it might not be the right perspective. And through the experiences that LGBTQ leaders have gone through, we find they're likely to be in a position where they are thinking about these things, where I can hold and under, try and understand multiple perspectives.
[00:36:56] Bree Fram: And importantly, then hopefully not do something that excludes people or says your perspective is not safe here. It is an environment where you're trying to bring others in so that you can come up with the solution that works best for the challenge you're facing at the moment.
[00:37:10] Sally Clarke: It's such a powerful point.
[00:37:11] Sally Clarke: And I love that you've Both use the words, you know, paradox and complexity here because I think it's such a incredibly challenging thing to be able to do, but such an important one to hold space for multiple truths for multiple views and also to not become overwhelmed by that or allow that to kind of be the end of the story.
[00:37:29] Sally Clarke: Things are complex. Period. But we actually can work through that and maintain that sense of perspective and, you know, connection with individuals and in the context of the whole to shift towards the next right thing for team or organization. And you mentioned really beautifully in the book, you know, in the section, particularly around transition, that transition is something that actually every human experiences in some form or another, and I really love that.
[00:37:55] Sally Clarke: And I. I can certainly think of some transitions that I've experienced in my own life too, but I'd love to take a moment to understand, you know, for our listeners also, how it is perhaps that a transitioning gender particularly can contribute to an individual's leadership skills and also sort of to their learnings as a human being.
[00:38:12] Bree Fram: I'll let Liz answer this one first because when anyone asks us to pick between our children, she picks this one as her favorite chapter.
[00:38:19] Liz Cavallaro: I do. I have a favorite chapter and it's my favorite for a lot of different reasons. The, the simple short reason is because when the contributor who's Sabrina said it in her interview to us as we were gathering data.
[00:38:32] Liz Cavallaro: It was instantly like, that's a chapter, you know, it just stood out because she said the words, everybody transitions. And she was talking about it in terms of, you know, we asked our contributors to describe to us, what do you think your leadership superpowers are, right? What are these particularly unique, enhanced skills or capacities that you have that have allowed you to be really effective and how did those develop as a real result of your journey?
[00:38:56] Liz Cavallaro: And so, basically the understanding that all people go through major life changes or transitions of all different types, and that even though they are dramatically different from each other, and totally different kinds of changes, some positive, some negative, some both, this idea of, again, being altered on the other side, right?
[00:39:14] Liz Cavallaro: And having to kind of figure your way through that. And, For Sabrina, who said this to us, it was about understanding that that's true of all people and that that's a way to connect with people on a deeper level, right? So no matter how different her life was from their life, even if it was, you know, someone who really struggled with or felt they couldn't understand her as a transgender person or whatever else, There's always something in the idea that we've all gone through these life transitions and we all have to figure out, you know, how to live on the other side of that, that you can make a deeper connection with someone, you can find something that you share, and then you can move forward from there, right?
[00:39:51] Liz Cavallaro: That can be a starting point for that interpersonal relationship. And so, it's my favorite for that reason, but it's also my favorite because I think it's one where it really helps. All of our readers, no matter what their background or experience is, regardless of whether they're a member of the community or not, see themselves in these leaders stories and feel inspired by them and hopefully get a sense of not only the inspiration and affirmation that you can have a positive experience or get some kind of growth and development out of adversity and out of really challenging, crucible experiences or transitions, but that there is a way forward.
[00:40:28] Liz Cavallaro: forward, right? And that you can acknowledge even that there may be something very negative and it doesn't change the fact that it perhaps was a very difficult negative thing and it doesn't make it okay. It doesn't forgive it that this adversity was faced, but it does, I think, empower individuals to look at their own story and their own journey and see where they can maybe build a slightly different relationship to or perspective on hard things in their life.
[00:40:55] Liz Cavallaro: Either ones they've already been through or ones they will go through in the future to be able to see that potential that exists inside of that adversity and that potential that exists inside of themselves that I can actually get something out of this and then take some ownership over it and have something better come out on the other side.
[00:41:12] Liz Cavallaro: And so I love it for that reason as well. And I think that's kind of the universality. to it, but in terms of gender transition in particular, I think Bree can share a couple of examples of where that comes into play.
[00:41:24] Bree Fram: I hope I have at least a few, and I already touched a little bit about how it built my capacity to create environments of psychological safety, where people felt it was okay to speak up or to bring me my problems.
[00:41:37] Bree Fram: Or bring me their problems. I suppose it would be funny if people were bringing me my own problems, but that's a whole different conversation. But more importantly, in other ways, I think it did two things. It took off my blinders and it unlocked my empathy. Um, in terms of, again, things I thought I was doing well or I was empathetic, it was a whole nother level when I all of a sudden noticed as I walked into a meeting and thought there's nothing but old white men here.
[00:42:06] Bree Fram: And. For me, that would have been something I never would have thought about, because I just would have walked in and been one of them. But all of a sudden now, I'm noticing, who are the people in the room? What else was I not seeing in these situations, of who might not feel, again, safe in those environments?
[00:42:25] Bree Fram: Or, even for me and my perspective, where walking down a dark alley or street at night, where I would have done so without a thought, thought beforehand because I'm safe, of course I'm safe. And now I actually have to think about that and look around and understand the environment in a better and more deeper way.
[00:42:44] Bree Fram: But that also really, as I said, unlocked my empathy to think about what are others going through. I thought I had been doing so, but it was just a different level of meaning to realize, hey, others are going through some really difficult things just by living in some cases. And I hadn't understood that nearly well enough.
[00:43:04] Bree Fram: And it's something I'm still learning and still developing. But transition for me unlocked a lot. So many different things that truly made me a better leader.
[00:43:12] Alexis Zahner: Thank you so much for sharing that Bree. And I love that you mentioned this level of empathy and your experiences is so unique and so fascinating in that you've been able to experience the world, both as a man, as a woman, but also as a transgender person.
[00:43:26] Alexis Zahner: So that culmination of experiences is one that's so rich and deep and so nuanced and varied, and one that. People who have not experienced that simply will hopefully just take longer to understand and empathize with rather than choose to never try and understand that. And, you know, as a woman, it's also fascinating to hear you say, you know, your experiences of walking down the street, feeling unsafe and then feeling safe.
[00:43:49] Alexis Zahner: And, you know, as a woman, that's just something that, you know, I grew up walking down an alley with keys in my hand, ready to go in case there's a need for it. So it's also really nice to have, I think, someone who's been That experience acknowledged as well. So thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that explanation and you articulating the difference in that experience as you've walked that journey uniquely as yourself.
[00:44:09] Alexis Zahner: And I'd love to ask a question, you know, on behalf of the non LGBTQ plus community as well around how we can also be better allies to people who are in the LGBTQ plus community and perhaps part of our teams, our colleagues, our friends, and our family members. What are some of the key things that we should be thinking about so that we can be better allies?
[00:44:30] Liz Cavallaro: One thing that stands out to me that I've heard a lot of folks share on this journey is making sure that it is clear that you are a safe space, right? That you are in fact an ally and that you are available, right? You are open, you are available to be supportive in whatever way is needed. Right. And so that is, there's some.
[00:44:54] Liz Cavallaro: really important elements of that, that I think it's really important for those of us who are not members of the community to understand. One is just that visibility of everyone matters, so visibility of allies matters too, right? So how can you literally be a visible ally, how can you make sure that that is known?
[00:45:10] Liz Cavallaro: In doing that, you're not only communicating, of course, to members of the community that you're a safe person to talk to or be open with and that you will support them in whatever way they need, but you are also communicating to the broader organization or wherever you are, what's not acceptable, right?
[00:45:27] Liz Cavallaro: And so being able to observe things like microaggressions, being able to feel comfortable speaking up when there are issues or challenges that things aren't right, maybe there are certain obstacles. In an organization that prevent minority individuals from having an effective experience or, you know, cause them more hardship than others, being able to speak up about those things, whether it's processes, whether it's paperwork, or whether it's something that someone is doing or saying that's not acceptable.
[00:45:55] Liz Cavallaro: Making sure to take that on, especially when you are not a member of that marginalized or minority group, and where you stand in some amount of privilege from whatever perspective that might be. Whatever part of your identity has some privilege in a certain space, utilizing that to Speak up. Utilizing that to correct issues and to remove barriers and making sure that that doesn't all fall to the people who are a member of the community.
[00:46:19] Liz Cavallaro: That's something that just happens all too often. There's such additional burden because they're the ones that see it, right? Going back to what Bree just talked about, they're the ones that notice the things that are concerns for them and those like them. And so because of that, the burden often falls to them to be their own allies and advocates.
[00:46:35] Liz Cavallaro: And so doing a better job of taking that on wherever we can and using our privilege to do that. And then also just signaling again to everyone, this is who we are and this is how we're going to be here, right? This is how we are going to operate. And then especially if you're the leader or you have influence or power of any kind, that you can then kind of spread that.
[00:46:52] Liz Cavallaro: throughout the organization, even more so. Those are the pieces that I've learned on my journey to try to always do a better job of.
[00:46:59] Bree Fram: Liz explained it beautifully that allyship is action. You can't just say, I'm an ally. Do something about it. And she is an amazing example. She wrote a book about this and why it's so important and so much more.
[00:47:14] Bree Fram: So it has been amazing to be on this journey with her, but allyship is those in the moment things that happen, as she talked about. It is speaking up when something is wrong because you have the ability to do so and you don't put that burden on someone else. Or you might be the one that actually gets caught.
[00:47:35] Bree Fram: Listen to in that moment, you may be the one who's sitting in the room where a decision is being made and that other person doesn't have a voice. And if you don't speak up, you are not being an ally because you are not acting another big area where this happens. And Liz touched also on this and putting the burden on an individual is an ally will do the work themselves to learn a little bit about this marginalized.
[00:47:59] Bree Fram: community, or individual member. Don't ask a question of that person merely to satisfy your own curiosity. Do that work yourself. Google it. Read a book. But if that question you want to ask that person is to further develop the relationship between you, then absolutely ask that question and have that conversation.
[00:48:19] Bree Fram: It's incredibly valuable. But again, don't do it. Don't do it just to satisfy your curiosity. If you're doing that, you are not being an ally.
[00:48:26] Sally Clarke: That's such an important delineation. Rhi, thank you so much for sharing. And thank you, Liz, for the array of practical things that I think very, very alive and very applicable.
[00:48:35] Sally Clarke: And as you underscored, Rhi, also very much about action and having, you know, the word vulnerability has come up a number of times in our conversation. And I'm reminded of the importance of everyone in these conversations. Tapping into that vulnerability and that courage to take those actions in that moment, as those, as those incidents happen, or as those opportunities arise, we could talk to you for hours and hours and hours, but we'll wrap after if it's all right to just ask you one more question.
[00:48:59] Sally Clarke: And we know there's a lot of LGBTQ plus listeners right now, you know, listening to our conversation leaders who are no doubt inspired to buy your book and to read it. What other messages would you like to share with them today?
[00:49:11] Bree Fram: My first message would be that you belong. everywhere. Do not let the world's expectations of you, those externally imposed constraints, hold you back.
[00:49:24] Bree Fram: You as your authentic self matter and you belong anywhere you want to be. There should be no limits on who you are or where you can go and the relationships you form, the things that you do. It is all incredibly important. So if nothing else, you matter.
[00:49:43] Liz Cavallaro: I'll just add, because this is a really great opportunity to say this to all of the people in this community, all of the people that we've already talked to and have helped us and contributed to the work that we're doing, all the people that we will talk to and all the ones we won't get a chance to, thank you so much for the inspiration and education that you have all provided to me.
[00:50:03] Liz Cavallaro: I have been enabled to call myself an ally and call myself an advocate and do this work and contribute however we have so far because this community allows me to join hands with them and try to make progress and move forward. So I have learned so much, I have been so inspired, and I've just gotten even so much personal benefit from all of the folks that I've met.
[00:50:27] Liz Cavallaro: That we have learned from. So thank you is my message.
[00:50:30] Alexis Zahner: Liz and Bree, such an incredible conversation. We appreciate you both being here with us today on We Are Human Leaders. Thank you so much. Thank you.
[00:50:40] Bree Fram: Thank you for having us.
[00:50:48] Sally Clarke: Thank you for being a part of this important conversation together with us and Bree and Liz. You can learn more about their incredible work at the show notes and learn more about human leaders at www. wearehumanleaders. com. See you next time.