From Ideas to Impact: How To Drive Positive Change with Michael Sheldrick
Michael Sheldrick - Policy Entrepreneur, Author, Activist and Co-Founder
Michael is a driving force behind the efforts of Global Citizen to end extreme poverty. As a Co-Founder and Chief Policy, Impact, and Government Affairs Officer, he leads the organization's campaigns to mobilize support from governments, businesses, and foundations. He is the author of the upcoming Amazon best-selling book, From Ideas to Impact: A Playbook for Influencing and Implementing Change in a Divided World (to be published by Wiley on April 9, 2024).
With a career that spans the world of pop and policy, Michael has worked with an impressive roster of international artists such as Beyoncé, Coldplay, Idris and Sabrina Elba, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus, Priyanka Chopra, Rihanna and Usher, as well as prominent political leaders including Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Barbados’ Prime Minister Mia Mottley, former UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, and former Australian Prime Ministers Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd.
He has co-produced some of the world's most impactful social campaigns and events, including the annual Global Citizen Festival in New York, the Guinness World Record-winning virtual concert One World: Together At Home, and the Nelson Mandela 2018 centennial celebration, Mandela 100. These initiatives have reached millions of people in over 150 countries and helped secure over $40 billion in support for local and regional organizations working to provide access to essential resources such as healthcare, education, and climate resilience.
A sought-after speaker and author on policy advocacy, sustainable development, and corporate responsibility, Michael has shared his insights at conferences and summits worldwide. His insights have also featured in leading outlets including Forbes, The Guardian, The Hill, HuffPost, Nikkei and Fairfax Media, and his voice heard on major news networks such as ABC, BBC, France 24, Sky News and CNN.
He has been recognized as a finalist for the 2017 Young Commonwealth Person of the Year and serves on: the board of the Ban Ki-moon Centre for Global citizens; the Leadership Council of aable, a fintech company connecting compassionate investors with underserved communities; and the Advisory Board of the Nigerian Solidarity Support Fund. He is also a co-host of the Global Town Hall, a North-South, East-West meeting featuring world leaders and leading minds to connect with global citizens.
Learn more about Michael Sheldrick, and get a copy of From Ideas to Impact: A Playbook for Influencing and Implementing Change in a Divided World here:
Connect with Michael Sheldrick on LinkedIn and via his website.
Get your copy of From Ideas to Impact: A Playbook for Influencing and Implementing Change in a Divided World here.
Episode Transcript:
Alexis Zahner: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Michael. It's an absolute delight to have you here with us today. And before we learn a little bit more about your work, we'd love to start by getting to know you better first and the journey that's brought you to this point. So far. Okay.
Michael Sheldrick: Well, it's a real pleasure to be here. Um, and, and thank you for having me on your podcast. Look, I, um, you know, when I got started, you know, I'm known as someone who co founded this organization, Global Citizen. We have 12 million members around the world. We've helped raise, um, or mobilize 40 billion to help improve lives, you know, yada, yada, right?
But people always interested in why you're doing something. You know, one of my best friends says it's not what you do or
Sally Clarke: uh,
Michael Sheldrick: it. It's why you do it. And I [00:01:00] guess from my perspective, if what you're asking is why I am passionate about these issues and social advocacy and social change. You know, I guess I guess it's really goes back to my days growing up here in the northern suburbs of Perth, Western Australia.
Um, I live in New York now, but I'm back here. We have a 4 month daughter, so I'm back here for a few weeks in in Perth and, you know, when I was growing up in in the northern suburbs and I was at school, I was 1 of those kids that was quite shy, wasn't good academically, at least initially. Um, and also was not great at sports, right?
And in Australia, we love to idolize sports, but I was always that kid who just wanted to kick a ball in the straight direction, let alone score a goal. And lo and behold, yeah, with everyone watching me, it would fly off behind me. Everyone would laugh and I would go into it. You know, a school assembly, there'd be some great sport in here.
I [00:02:00] talk about, you know, all the great stuff I'd done and I'd be sat there thinking, well, how can I relate to this? What can I do? What can I learn from this? And, you know, it wasn't really until halfway through my first year at school, you know, where I had this fantastic teacher. That for one reason or another took a keen interest in me and said, I think there's more to you than meets the eye up until that point, you know, one of my friends says that when people set so low expectations of you, you can live down to those expectations rather than rise above them.
And for whatever reason, this teacher saw some potential in me that I didn't know was there, and he encouraged me to work hard. Spend lunchtimes with him, go in that extra mile. And I never forget the last day of school. He had told me earlier, if I worked hard, he believed I could be number one in the class, right?
This particular subject. And the last day before school, uh, I was sat on the lounge suite at home, [00:03:00] car pulls up and out rocks this teacher. And I'm like, what are you doing coming to my house? And he said in a very Australian way. Outstretched his hand and he said, well done, mate, and he gave me this certificate with a number 1 on it.
And, you know, I think after that, encouraged, you know, worked hard and ended up finishing high school, um, in the top 1 percent of the state could study anything I wanted, but as we say in Australia. I never really had tickets for myself. And so when people were saying, ah, you're doing really well, you've done all this.
I never lost sight of that kid, um, in the Northern suburbs who felt like a loser, felt stupid, um, and felt like they wouldn't amount to anything. And I remembered the difference that teacher made in my life. And I think it was that awareness and that sense of gratitude, I suppose, for the opportunities I had grown up and as I got into university, the recognition that there were millions [00:04:00] of kids around the world who through no fault of their own, maybe it's because they didn't have access to a great teacher.
Maybe it's because they didn't have access
Alexis Zahner: Hmm.
Michael Sheldrick: to quality medicine. So they died before the age of 5, let alone. Get into school. You know, I realized that that's what I wanted to contribute to bridging those inequities and extending opportunity to people around the world. And that's that's really what led me to working in a social impact and and purpose space.
Alexis Zahner: Wow. Michael, thank you. It's incredible that, you know, such an incident in such a formative age in your life had such a huge ripple into your direction and, and really sort of, I guess, in a way shaped who you are and what you're doing now and, and helping so many people around the world. It's incredible to think that that impact from one teacher who, you know, probably sees lots of students every other year was able to have such an impact on your life.
That's, um, such a special moment in time. Mm
Michael Sheldrick: I say this, so it was very fortunate, [00:05:00] like, so that teacher, he was like 24, would you believe it was his first teaching gig
Alexis Zahner: Oh,
Sally Clarke: well,
Michael Sheldrick: he was only at that school for that one year. He went off somewhere else after that.
Alexis Zahner: hmm.
Michael Sheldrick: And I tracked him down. So I'm back in perp and I'm also doing a few. Yeah, well, it's important, right?
And I think when you're growing up, you, you, you forget all these things, right? You forget where you've come from. Been in New York for the last 10 years. So I'm coming back. And last night I did a book event, um, talking about this new book and I just decided to go through. I'd like, gee, it would be nice to be able to recognize him.
And I went back to a number of people that played a role in my life. Also a few lecturers at university and I just invited them. And he came along last night and it was amazing. Like I haven't like, this was more than 20 years ago now it's 2001. And so I told that story in front of everyone and, and, and basically said, you know, like teachers do play a big role and I don't know if anyone had ever told him that, um, but it is, it is [00:06:00] important.
And yeah, that one incident, like, yeah, it really did change at least the course of my life. Yeah,
Sally Clarke: story. I think Michael, of how much impact we can have in ways that we might not even imagine, which also brings me to the title of your incredible new book. From ideas to impact a playbook for influencing and implementing change in a divided world. Now, this is a really big topic and we're really excited to sort of delve into it, into it with, yeah, you chose a really simple, book there. Um, love to start by, I think first, just for myself, just unpacking the title a little bit and sort of how you came to want to translate ideas into impact yourself, and, you came to these ideas and sort of formed this playbook for influencing and implementing change.
Michael Sheldrick: you know, it's, it's interesting. I, I get [00:07:00] people reaching out to me all the time, whether it's on LinkedIn or Instagram, it's often it could be a university student. Quite often. It's even high school students. Um, it could be members of rotary clubs, um, you know, many different types of people. Sometimes it's leaders of communities and vulnerable situations, um, and they're all asking for advice on how to launch their own campaigns.
And I suppose the reason why I wrote the book is initially when I would get asked these questions and, you know, it would happen all the time. I'd be in Kenya. I was there on my honeymoon and this young guy. Reached out on Instagram, asking for advice, would catch a coffee, um, and try, try and give some little words of wisdom from my own experiences.
But initially I always had this fear in imparting advice because in the same way that I mentioned to you, I was that kid sat in that school assembly, listen to a motivational speaker who I couldn't [00:08:00] relate to in any way. I didn't want to come across as, okay, look at all these great things we've done on social impact.
And the only way you can create change is to found your own organization, bring together millions of people because that in itself could be quite disempowering. Right? And so really, I was like, trying to think through when I wrote the book. Well, what, what is it that I know now? Not just from my own experiences, but having got to meet some incredible people around the world, you know, some of the people who have endorsed the book include people like Jane Goodall, who's extraordinary human being in the world.
Um, and what is it I've learned that I wish I knew, you know, 10, 15 years ago when we were starting out. And so I attempted to distill these eight principles of what I term policy entrepreneurship, but it's really a way to make a difference. And my Thesis is, is whether you're a cultural icon like Taylor Swift.
Or whether you're a business executive or an [00:09:00] everyday citizen, there's something we can all do. And I have a particular emphasis on policy change, because at the end of the day, yes, we need to volunteer. Yes, we can donate. Yes, if you're in the US, other countries, you can register to vote, but at the end of the day, with some of these big challenges, like ending extreme poverty, climate change, there are Systemics challenges, right?
And so systemic challenges require systemic solutions. And this is why we need everyone involved in the policy process. And to your point on ideas and to impact, you know, 1 of the things that I identify quite early in the book is the fact we have this implementation crisis, right? We have all of these lofty words that our politicians have subscribed to.
Such as the UN Sustainable Development Goals, which was the UN 17 point plan that all countries agreed to in 2015 to end extreme poverty, reduce inequality and address climate [00:10:00] change. And yet, as of last year, which was the halfway mark to meet these goals through to 2030,
Alexis Zahner: I'm going to
Michael Sheldrick: percent of these goals had been met.
And the reality is, is we're not over. We're not going to overcome this implementation crisis
Alexis Zahner: a moment,
Michael Sheldrick: as usual approach we've adopted in the past. We can't rely on government alone.
Alexis Zahner: you
Michael Sheldrick: people around the table and there's something we can all do in our spheres of influence. To bring about change and, you know, the book doesn't pretend to have all of the answers, but it does provide a starting point, right?
And which I think is important. Um, you know, one of the best things we can do is we can get people motivated to at least begin to create change. Often they get on that first step, you know, and then once they're on it and they start to see the payoffs of their initial action, momentum sets in.
Sally Clarke: Yep.
Michael Sheldrick: and the rest is history.
And, you know, [00:11:00] I finished with a quote. One of my favorite heroes is, um, Eleanor Roosevelt, who was the 1st U. S. Ambassador to the U. N. Um, and also 1 of the authors of the U. N. Declaration for human rights. But I have this fridge magnet that I got shortly after I moved to America, and it's a quote from her.
And, um, it says the best way to begin is to begin. And so I hope the book will help many people. Get a start and to begin their own social change efforts.
Alexis Zahner: Yeah, it's fantastic, Michael, and our listeners at We Are Human Leaders, you know, we really talk about leadership as a set of behaviors versus a formal role, and I love this idea that you mentioned. It's about mobilizing people at all levels. Cause we understand that once we have idea of where our influence and power lies, we can actually take some empowered action towards that.
So with that in mind, and you just mentioned this idea of an implementation issue as well. I'd love [00:12:00] to unpack this a little bit more. And could you help us understand what are the, some of, some of the most common mistakes, um, that you've seen in your work? Um, when, Whether it be change makers or leaders tend to make when it comes to wanting to drive the actual impact they want to see in the worlds around them.
Michael Sheldrick: Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a great question. Um, there's, there's a lot I could comment on that. I think maybe maybe a
Alexis Zahner: Mm.
Michael Sheldrick: 3. I think the 1st 1 is, you know, in a book, I talk about if you're starting a change of it, or even if you're collaborating in 1, it's really important to have a very clear, concise goal of the impact you want to achieve so that people can visualize it.
People can know how to support. And that sounds obvious, right? But too often I meet people and they're very well intentioned. And in some cases, they've already mobilized some support. Maybe they already have funding to [00:13:00] launch a campaign or an initiative, or they have some high level supporters. But when I did deep dive into the issue with them often, you know, it's focused on the problem.
Right? So it's like, how do you stop illegal deforestation? How do you remove plastic from the ocean? And not actually a very clear concept that play in terms of the actual change and wanting to bring about. And in the absence of that, right, no matter how intentioned you are, or well intentioned, you are really all you're doing is raising awareness about the problem.
And there's no shortage of people out there ready to diagnose all of the multiple issues wrong with the planet. Right?
Sally Clarke: hmm.
Michael Sheldrick: so it's often to actually clearly define the solutions and that could also be prioritized. The solutions at hand, because the flip side of that is I see people come in with almost too many solutions and I call it the shopping list approach where [00:14:00] people get in front of someone and they start reeling off like a whole page of like 100 different solutions.
And so I talk through, like, how do you actually identify. Some common solutions and goals, um, and and mobilize and know how to prioritize. I think the 2nd, um, key. Mistake I often see, and it's maybe it's less a mistake and more a distraction to be honest. Um, but 1 thing that I see very abundant right now in the world is the fact that clearly people feel anxious, right?
And with that anxiety, there's a sense of powerlessness with everything going on. Around us, and sometimes even anger and outrage at its extreme. And I think when you don't necessarily have a sense of agency or clearly defined path, you can look to ways in terms of how to channel that passion in a, in a.
Why that isn't the most constructive, right? And so I find people [00:15:00] going on social media, whether it's posting solidarity messages of support, which is fine, but then extending that and policing the social media accounts of others and looking at what people are saying or, you know. What they're not saying and all of that stuff, it might help us, you know, there's a great book out called breaking the gridlock that came out a few years ago and the authors in that book talk about, you know, how all of that desire solidarity post and whatever you want to call it can help us, you know, satisfy a need to feel right, righteous, certain and safe but doesn't actually help us impact people's lives. And so I think it's like, how do we avoid those distractions, um, and actually channel into a meaningful solution oriented way, which, which is, which is hard and that's the role of policy entrepreneurs. And I, and I guess the final mistake I would say, and again, it's, it's maybe [00:16:00] a, a shortfall is, is the idea that, okay, if you want Turn an idea into impact, turn talk into action.
It's one thing to extract the commitment from someone or a promise from someone. But follow up is so key. And I can tell you, you can have the most amazing meeting in the world, right? Where you get everything where you think you've gotten everything you wanted from someone or you want from someone, but unless you quickly follow up.
Um, in a concrete way, you know, chances are you're not going to turn that talk into action and, um, extended in the long term, right? Change often takes time and too many of us in the social impact space, ask ourselves the question, what can we win today, rather than asking us the more formidable question, which is what can I build today that will last forever?
Sally Clarke: What a profound question, Michael. I think that's It does really take courage, uh, to have that longer term vision. I think it can be very, you mentioned a couple of points there that I think really speak to this human desire that we have, whether it's to feel control in the moment through
Sally Clarke: own stress response by getting really intense on social media or having these meetings and having this kind of like, yes, this win moment and thinking that that's going to be enough.
And then not having that, that follow through and really seeking the commitment for whatever reason. I think that's such a beautiful way of articulating, um, where there are, there's a bit of a missing link sometimes between all of this, your very well intended activism, but actual meaningful change.
Michael Sheldrick: and the flip side to it. And by the way, these are these are good questions. And I've never actually thought about it in these terms, actually, but I break down the 8 principles into really 3 [00:18:00] leadership archetypes in the book. Um, and the 1st is, is the visionary, right? Which addresses the challenge of how do you set meaningful, smart goals that can mobilize people around an idea.
The 2nd is the role of the diplomat, right? Which is how you can engage constructively with people and recognize that change requires engaging with people. We may not always like. And then the 3rd is how do you actually land the playing right? This question of turn and talk into action and that's the role of the implementer.
And in many cases. You know, that might be 1 person who can, at the same time, simultaneously occupy all 3 of those archetypes, or in many cases, it's about leveraging the strengths of other partners, right? And identifying your own strengths and weaknesses. I mean, I can tell you at Global Citizen, and maybe people won't agree, but someone asked me last night, they said, okay, there's [00:19:00] three co founders of Global Citizen.
Are you all the same? Like, do you occupy the same space? Um, and I can say, no, there's clearly one of us who's a visionary, one of us who's a diplomat, and one of us who's, who's an implementer.
Alexis Zahner: Mm hmm. And it's interesting that you mentioned that word, Michael, visionary, because when you were speaking about this goal part, for me, that's what was coming up. You know, often in business, we set a vision, which is very much this lofty idea of the ideal world that we want to be a part of. And it's almost the mission statement, um, where we bring that down and the rubber sort of meets the road.
Okay. What actual action needs to occur so that that vision, um, can become a reality. And does that kind of sound, um, a little bit like that, that goal setting moment in terms of the impact, um, side of things as well?
Michael Sheldrick: Yeah, I think so. And it's also okay if when you're setting that goal, Immediately, you don't necessarily know how you will bridge the implementation gap.
Alexis Zahner: Yep.
Sally Clarke: Mm-Hmm.
Michael Sheldrick: you know, what, [00:20:00] what you want to be careful of is you don't want to, you don't want to be manufacturing your goals by asking yourself too early on.
Well, what's what's achievable? Because what you can do is almost set, um, you know, you can set a goal that isn't really inspiring. Or, you know, is, is, is just going after the low hanging fruit. And so our goal at global citizen is clearly to end extreme poverty, right? It's a, it's a big goal and that becomes the motivating force behind everything we, we do.
But there was a some advice, a friend of mine who used to head up junior chamber international, which is a service led organization around the world. And he once spoke to me the power of. Naively audacious goals, right? And he said, if you come up with a very clear vision that you can communicate and rally people around and you can get them to visualize the impact in their mind, the power of that goal can quite quickly overcome any implementation in experience.
Any lack of access to power or funding or other networks, and it can bring people around who are able to supplement those shortfalls. And I can tell you, like, you know, now, people look at global citizen and they say, wow, you work with all these big artists. You have all these big companies behind you. But that wasn't always the case and what we had when we first started was literally what we wrote on a piece of paper.
And that was the power of our goals.
Sally Clarke: Mm. Amazing. and. You know, you've highlighted this a little already, Michael, and it's even mentioned in the title of the book that this is in the context of A divided world. love to unpack a little bit. What steps you see leaders can take to really start to foster some solidarity and create a united, cohesive approach when they're leading change. And, um, you know, I think there are [00:22:00] for many of us at the moment, there's often a sense of sort of overwhelmed, perhaps a sense of, uh, powerlessness or learned help, learned helplessness in this sense of. What can we do? Where do we start? And you've, uh, you've identified very clearly, I think a really beautiful way of sort of, you know, bringing that vision and then making it very, making tangible steps so we can create that change.
But what do you think leaders need to do to really foster that sense of solidarity and, and, and unity as we move towards change? Thank you.
Michael Sheldrick: Yeah, so it's, it's, it's interesting in the book, I talk about this idea of pragmatic idealism. Right. And to, to break it down, you know, I, I distinguish between pure pragmatism, which is maybe amoral, divorced from any kind of social purpose or goal, which can be pretty vacuous. Right. But I talk about this tension often between, you know, having the idealism of our goals, but [00:23:00] recognizing often if we're To achieve those goals, we have to get our hands dirty a little bit and the road to achieving those goals might be a little bit messy.
And it's, and it, and we have to have a degree of comfort with that. And so, you know, a couple, a couple of instances I talk about in the book is the, is the concept of change often requires mutual concession. Right? And often. You know, when I was interviewing people who were involved in bringing about huge efforts in, in social change, an example being some of the negotiators that brought together the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement in 1998 to end the troubles that had long played Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland.
Uh, as a whole, which saw thousands of people, many incident civilians die. And I spoke to some of the negotiators, you know, they, the thing that [00:24:00] really came up is often a sign of an agreement is the fact that no party gets. Everything they want. And in that case, and, you know, there's still tensions, but they've had now more than 25 years of peace on the whole.
But in that case, it was some hard issues. People had to reconcile 1 of which was prisoner swaps, right? Or prisoner releases where, you know, to 1 half side, you know, these were heroes locked up to the other side. These are people being released to. Had been basically murderers of their friends and family and colleagues and all of these compromises came together, but it was this recognition that this was what needed to happen in order to move forward.
Right and it was also a recognition that we're not going to move forward by resolving everything. Past injustice in the past, but it's how do we focus on on the future? You can't cure everything that's that's happened, [00:25:00] but you can focus on the future. I think so. That was 1 point is the is the recognition of the importance of mutual concession.
I think the 2nd aspect that I talk about is, is this concept of the purity test. And Adam Grant, the Warden Business School, um, psychologist, calls this by another label. He calls it the binary bias, right? And it's a desire to see the world in terms of black and white. And the danger of this approach is, you know, if, if a person or a solution or an agreement or, An organization doesn't 100 percent ladder up to our ideal view of the world.
Right? There is a pressure, especially now from our, from our tribe to basically say, say no, right? Subject [00:26:00] everything to this purity test doesn't ladder up saying no and walk away. And, you know, I, I, I, I think that the, the negative consequence of this is it can leave you, as I've said earlier. Fill in right, righteous, certain, and safe, but without being willing to make any of the trade offs, even in terms of engagement when you're not going to have an impact on lives.
And, um, you know, I, um, I talk, I talk about, um, a few examples of this in the book. 1 of my favorite stories is, is the power of, uh, the environment movement in America who. Really fought hard when the inflation reduction act was passed a few years ago, which represented the biggest, most monumental piece of climate legislation in US history.
I met with some of the key players involved in that to really find out. Well, how did they do that? How did they bridge it together? And it told me some of the stories back in 2009. [00:27:00] When President Obama was put in climate legislation forward, and he told me about how these environment groups really ate one another out.
Like, they really, they really attacked one another. You know, on the one hand, you had people who cared about protecting the forests, and then you had people who was working hard to get the economy to shift away from oil, coal and gas, and some in that camp would look at those trying to plant trees, and they would accuse them of uh, Basically brainwashing, they would say, well, you're giving companies a get out of jail free card.
You're allowing them to plant trees and you're giving them a social license to continue operating. And as a result, this piece of legislation didn't get up, get up. And this 1 guy was speaking to, he said, we, we made a point that if the next opportunity came up. To achieve major climate legislation, we wouldn't let it slip for our fingers again.
Right? He said, so I said, [00:28:00] well, what did you do in those 10 years in between? And he said, well, we got everyone together, the conservative groups that wouldn't even talk about climate change. And we got the groups, he said, even the crazy, super lefty ones over here. We organized retreats. We even organized sleepovers.
We've got everyone together. And he said, when the next opportunity came up in 2021, 2022. He said the coolest thing was we, we rocked up in Washington, D. C. with the most biggest diverse coalition ever assembled. We made agreements around what we were going to campaign on and what we weren't. And we each made our peace with that.
And they secured passage, which, when you look at forests alone in America, They secured billions of new dollars to plant new trees and to protect existing forests. And I think the result of that is to help protect more than 17 percent or the equivalent for us to, I think it's something like, we'll cover [00:29:00] more than 17 percent of America's, um, emissions and carbon footprint and that's the power of coalition building.
And I talk about that in the book. But it requires us to resist the urge not to subject everything to the purity test.
Alexis Zahner: It's an incredible insight, Michael, and one I think that, you know, politically we can take so much from. but what I, what I love so much about that and what I think we see so much of, just at the moment in general sort of, um, society, especially, especially with, you know, Um, social media is just the rise of things like very binary, um, biases, as you've mentioned, and, and like cancel, cancel culture a big part of this, where we become so embedded in our own opinion.
We forget that there may be other ways, um, to move forward together in that mutual unity. And I think that's a really incredible example of how. we're considering our bigger vision for the world at large and, and the impact we want to have, we can actually consider how [00:30:00] that can be one unity alongside the mission and vision of others as well.
And I think that's such an incredible example of, um, coalition building towards a common goal, particularly when we are looking at something, that's such a large undertaking as policy change. It, I imagine there are very few instances where coalition, things like that would even get through.
Michael Sheldrick: I completely agree. And, you know, I think partly it's because in the age of social media, I wonder if part of the issue is, you know, there's obviously loud minorities, right? And they have their voice and they tend to dominate everything we see with a certain view. And I think we often tend to think those of us that might be afraid to express an alternative opinion or contrarian opinion.
We're worried that, okay. 100 percent of the rest of the population thinks in a certain way. And the reality is, the [00:31:00] reality is, is probably 95 percent of the population are in your shoes, wondering what everyone else is thinking, right? And it's only the 5 percent that's the loud minority. And I think it's, it's, it's getting over that hurdle.
And I know when I've often expressed things and I've been like, uh, how is this going to go down? I don't know. People often come up to me and said, yeah, that really resonated that that struck a chord with me. And so I think partly it's how do we mobilize the courage? And again, you know, the greatest fear of, of resisting the, the, the desire to subject everything to a purity test is often allegations of betrayal and treachery from our own tribe.
From our own side, and and so that's often the biggest threat and the biggest hurdle that that we have to overcome.
Alexis Zahner: So
Sally Clarke: It's really interesting, Michael, I particularly admire, you know, there's a lot of courage that it takes [00:32:00] and vision for someone in 2009, using the example that you gave to be able to have the, the commitment and the vision to see through basically sort of 12 years of this process of creating a coalition and working to foster connections. Um, you know, this is a longer term vision and I think a lot of. A lot of us are sort of willing to take at the moment we have, you know, whether it's political cycles or other sort of short term goals. I just love the courage that it takes to be able to build incrementally towards that broader goal.
Cause obviously in the eyes of history, 12 years is a very short time. And for us as humans, it can feel so, so long, knowing of course, the outcome at any time you mentioned, you know, we need to, to really build and foster courage. I'd love to hear from you, how you go about that. Yeah.
Michael Sheldrick: relates to what you were just talking about, right? With this recognition that change [00:33:00] happens over a long stretch of time, and I think it's often 1st. Accepting the fact that you're not going to win every argument, right? You're not going to win every battle.
And that's okay. Like, I often tell people when they're starting with advocacy, right? You might be meeting with a local politician. You might be meeting with another NGO to build a coalition. I often say, you know, the goal of the 1st engagement. Isn't convince them of the merits of your argument. If I already sold them fine, but it's, it's not about winning the argument.
It's about how you make people feel and you want them to leave their encounter with you. Thinking that was an interesting conversation. I want to meet with that person again, or I'm willing at least to consider this. That's always the point of the 1st engagement. And I think we lose sight of that. Right?
Too [00:34:00] many of my encounters I've seen in the past with well intentioned people, they get in front of someone they've been trying to convince. And then they unload everything. And you know what, that's the best way to ensure there's no second beat and that person walks outside. Well, I'm, I'm even more convinced.
That I'm not going to support that person's agenda now, right? Because it because of that. And so, and so I think, you know, that said, you know, there's a number of different, different tactics that you can still employ to accelerate change. I think, you know, I think change change can happen over a very long period of time, as you said, 12 years or even longer, but I think there are moments in time where we can always recognize.
That actually tickler idea. This is a time. This is this is an idea whose time has come right? And I think it's in those situations are particular leavers and techniques we can use, um, Lenin [00:35:00] Lenin had that famous saying right where he said there are decades, um, when nothing happens and then there are days where decades happen.
Right. And, and I think, uh, an example I talk about in the book, and this goes back several 100 years ago, but was around the, the, the social movements that occurred in the late 1700s, early 1800s with respect to abolishing the transatlantic slave trade.
Alexis Zahner: Mmm.
Michael Sheldrick: of those movements had been going for quite a number of years, decades, even, and it was all built on the strength of their moral arguments and many of them, um, on, on the strength of their Christian credentials or the idea that slavery is wrong and it should be abolished.
Right? And they had been doing this for years. They've gotten thousands of people to sign petitions and presented it in in the British Parliament and it hadn't really gone anywhere. Right? And [00:36:00] then, yeah. A war started out between France and Britain, and in that war, it was interesting because there was some people in, in the campaign who basically was up to view.
Oh, we're never going to get any progress now because you know what, um, given slavery is a big driver of the economy. We're now in war. If we're seeing as calling for the abolition of that. We're going to be accused of sedition, of treachery. But then there was a couple of campaigners who said, well, hold on a second.
Maybe we can actually use the war to frame this up and get things moving faster. And their idea was, well, why don't we, you know, put forward legislation, basically stopping ships, right? Whether they're British ships or they're neutral ships. from trading with our enemies, right? And, you know, [00:37:00] trading with Spain, trading with France, and in doing so, all of these people said, yeah, but that sounds like a good idea.
We shouldn't be allowing, we controversies, we should stop trade with our enemy, right? So they all passed us not realizing that that included human, um, slaves, right? As a good. And so in that way, it was a backdoor. Entry into stop in the slave trade. And I think 1 or 2 years after that, you then had in 1807, the, the, the formal passage of the end of the slave trade, but it really started there.
Alexis Zahner: Mm.
Michael Sheldrick: so there's, there's a concept that, um, I read about when I was writing the book and it, and it's called pull in the policy rope sideways. Right. So many issues are polarized and divided, and it tends to be the more media attention and issue gets. The more polarized it is, and it's defined on one end of the spectrum
Alexis Zahner: Mm.
Michael Sheldrick: versus the other.
And the idea of pulling the [00:38:00] ropes sideways, how can you frame something up in a different way and come at it sideways that isn't going to automatically throw something into, whether it's the culture wars or, or, or the political crosshairs of the day. So anyway, and there's a number of other, uh, Ideas and tactics I talk about in the book on how we can try and accelerate change and um, You know not not have to have something As fundamental as ended in so trade take another few decades
Alexis Zahner: Mm. such a brilliant point, Michael, looking at these almost innovative ways that we can get what we're trying to do through, perhaps, you know, on the back of something else. And wonder if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to ask you a bit more of a personal question here. Um. For anyone who's been in the activism space for a while, especially around, um, certain challenges that really call on us quite emotionally, people who are working in the racism space, etc. A lot [00:39:00] of these things can feel really close to home and activism in and of itself can be a really big task, um, in your own emotional labor. Um, so, um, And I just wonder if you have any personal sort of strategies or ideas, Michael, around how you can take care of yourself as a leader, as a change maker, as an activist at any level, um, perhaps how can, how can you sort of. Keep your energy for the long term in these sort of situations to make sure that, you know, change that does take a long period of time to really, um, come about, we can feel like we can go the long haul in seeing that through. Hmm.
Michael Sheldrick: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked this question. Um, because it's, it's a real issue in, in the social advocacy, the nonprofit and really the charity sector as a whole. Um, and I think, I think in part, it's, it's a problem of our own created, you know, I think we, we've come, we've almost put [00:40:00] the idea of the charity or the nonprofit worker on a pedestal, right?
And we've almost expected this person. To be this incredibly south less. You know, person like who is a saying who is happy to, you know, put themselves through, you know, like earning minimum wage, you know, the idea that we're not going to do anything for profit, that we're not going to do anything to take care of ourselves, you know, the concept of self sacrifice is a huge, huge problem.
And,
Alexis Zahner: yeah.
Michael Sheldrick: I think in, in, in part, like already nonprofit workers have sacrificed a lot, right? Although it's even volunteer in that time who don't get paid as many people who contribute to that. And the challenge with that is, is, is, I mean, that will always be an element of it, but the challenge of that stereotype.
Is it's almost become a [00:41:00] requirement and it's like if people don't fit that mold, we're actually told to shame them or tear them down. And so we get to the point where, you know, and, and, and, uh, a great writer in America, he wrote a book called Uncharitable a few years ago. Um, and he was kind enough to give an endorsement for the book.
He talks about this concept of the overhead myth. Um, and he talks about the idea that there are plenty of people who donate to charities, but we often make this. Make this comment. Oh, well, I want 100 percent to go to the program, right? And we don't ask ourselves. Well, who's actually delivering the program and it's people, right?
Well, you know, we should be, we should be making sure those people are rewarded that they're looked after. That they're paid right in the private sector. We make sure people are looked after. They're incentivized and he points out he gives these 2 contrasting analogies. He [00:42:00] talks about, on the 1 hand, um, a charity work called the head of a small charity that might be earning, let's say, 100, 000 dollars a year.
And this person is expected to raise, you know, let's say, a budget of 10Million dollars a year. They have a small stop. And because of these restrictions on overhead, et cetera, um, they're not able to pay other staff competitively and they're in this vicious cycle of, um, trying to attract talent, dealing with burnout and, okay, right.
Trying to, trying to raise 10 million dollars and it's just so hard. On the other hand. There's an alternative reality where that same worker goes to work in the private sector. They apply their, let's say, marketing skills and they earn a salary of 400, 000 a year. Well, that same person could then donate 100, 000 of their salary to that non profit.
They get to sit on [00:43:00] the board and they get all the glamour and applause that comes from being labeled a philanthropist. Right? And so, if you're looking at this and you're trying to give people a value proposition, you're like, Oh, okay. I know which one sounds pretty good. Right? And so the question is, is how do we as a society, all those issues you alluded to, how do you take care of yourself?
Well, it really also starts by making sure that that society. Philanthropy actually properly values that work and assesses that work because, you know, it's great to do that for a few years, but if you've got family and everyone has their own. Family life. We all have our own challenges. How do you make sure that that that you're properly paid that you're properly looked after?
I mean, it's so important and I, in the book, I talk about how we rewrite the rules of philanthropy to make sure nonprofit workers and advocates are better [00:44:00] valued in society in the same way we value increasingly better, but we need to obviously value more as aged care workers. So, Teachers, nurses, et cetera, like this is, this is something we can all be doing.
And so this was obviously, I know your question was about, you know, how you can take care of yourself, but this is also about how the organization and the broader philanthropy ecosystem can also take care of you, um, as, as, as well. And we shouldn't just say, Oh, I don't want to pay any overhead because often that overhead is actually these very individual.
Heroes doing this work, but I think, look, to answer your question, um, you know, how, how we can take care of ourselves. I, I really, I really think it's staying true to your true north. I think, you know, too often we fall into the trap of feeling like we have to do everything. I know I've fallen into this trap before [00:45:00] where you start doing something and then everyone starts reaching out to you for advice and you feel like a bad person if you don't respond to each and every one of, um, those requests and it's okay to say no, or it's okay to say, I really want to meet you for coffee and give you advice.
But hey, I'm doing this thing right now and it's really stressing me out. Would you mind if we did it next time you're in town? Um, or we can catch up on a, on a Zoom. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Sally Clarke: Yeah. Such an important point. And as a, as a burnout researcher myself, uh, Michael, I think it's something that we often forget. And it's, um, particularly I think in that, in the, um, space where there's almost an expectation that you will accept the. The, the glory of fighting for something better view of a, you know, a livable salary and these kinds of payoffs that people in the, um, in the charity and the not for profit sector are expected to take.
And I think there really does need to be a real shift in the narrative around [00:46:00] how we value, Uh, you know, human input and how we value what we do and what, what other people do. And certainly couldn't agree more with, uh, your statement that also nurses, teachers, like the one that inspired you, these people who really do deserve, um, to be. Um, you know, financially remunerated in the way that they, that they truly deserve, given the impact that they have, uh, on humanity now and, and today and tomorrow,
Alexis Zahner: Yeah. Mm
Sally Clarke: now I feel like, you know, we have a million more questions, but we also really honor your time and, um, don't want to take up your entire day. Um, We'd love though, to just sort of finish with, um, a little bit of an insight, because I know there's a lot of people listening who will be very inspired right now, um, to want to make a change and to start to translate perhaps an idea that they have into impact. What would you advise as a first step for the, that person listening right now, Michael? Mm
Michael Sheldrick: I, I would, I think it's [00:47:00] twofold. I think the 1st is to, you know, really identify that cause you don't have to necessarily have a goal in mind. And in my book, I talk about how to identify other networks of people who can help you flesh it out on how you can come and identify a solution. But it's really important.
To identify what cause it is you're trying to address. And then I think in the most authentic way possible, really drill down on why you're passionate, because I think when you get in front and you start asking people for help, you get in front of people, they'd be looking at you almost with the, unless they know you really well and they already trust you, that's fine, but otherwise many people be looking at you with a glazed looking in their eye.
Sort of trying to figure you out and they're like, well, why are you here? What does this mean to you? And I always find unless people understand why you're there in front of them, you have a credibility, uh, issue. And until you can bridge that, [00:48:00] it's going to be very hard to attract the support. But if you know your cause, if you know why you're doing it, Then from there, you can quite quickly start to build support, convince people to come on board.
I think that's so incredibly important. And it's okay too. And this is probably the flip side to also identify, um, you know, what your shortcomings are and where you need support. You know, write it down. What's my cause? Why am I doing this? And then what don't I know? I remember one of the very first campaigns I did.
It was to mobilize support alongside Rotary International to help eradicate polio. And I remember
Alexis Zahner: hmm.
Michael Sheldrick: I knew why I was doing it. Um, you know, because I'd met these Rotarians and they were incredibly passionate. I'd met polio survivors. And I also thought in eradicating the disease, it was one of the best ways we could demonstrate to people that the end of extreme poverty was [00:49:00] possible.
So I knew why I was doing something, but I remember having all of these doubts. I don't know where we're going to get sponsorship from. I don't know where we're going to be able to meet if the key decision makers, the prime minister, how are we going to meet with her? And I remember just writing up this list and Ring in a friend and through that one thing led to the other and, you know, as a case in point, this was Global Citizens first ever music concert.
We had no artists, no sponsorship, no venue. I'd never performed anything in my life. And by just putting that out there into the world saying this is my idea. How do I do it? I remember sat at a park bench at my university and get in a phone call, and it was this American lady. She had met. Sorry. Yeah, she's American.
She had met an Australian while surfing in Hawaii, and they had moved to Queensland, and there she was bored trying to figure it out. And someone had forwarded her this email [00:50:00] because she had worked on producing benefit concerts in America. And she said, well, I can help you out. I've got some advice. And,
Sally Clarke: Incredible.
Michael Sheldrick: I think what I talk about in the book is how to leverage the power of others, because at the end of the day, you know, no one can do everything, but everyone can do something.
And I think the key is to first ask yourself, well, what is it that you can do? I
Alexis Zahner: And it sounds to me, Michael, that you've seen a lot of success through this and conviction around the importance of your why, and that in and of itself has given you the confidence to navigate. The how it, it doesn't, that's not, we don't need to know that right now, but we know why this is so critical.
So we'll find a way.
Michael Sheldrick: couldn't, I couldn't agree more. Like, I think, you know, if you can, if you can come up with the why, the how. The how we usually take care of itself, even if you don't know, um, the, the journey, if you can get [00:51:00] the destination. Then often the rest will take care of itself, which is why, um, again, full circle, Eleanor Roosevelt, you know, the best way to begin is to begin.
Even if that is as simple as reaching out to someone, writing an email, sending a text message, saying, Hey, would you know how. Raise money or get a venue. Do you know how to do this? That's often the best way to begin. And one thing I would say is people are constantly afraid of reaching out to folks because they're worried of rejection.
And you just need to break through that. And it is hard.
Sally Clarke: Sure.
Michael Sheldrick: Chances are the first couple of people you ask for help will say no, like that. That will likely be a given. Chances are they may not even know how, but, but, but persevere, stay with it because it might be the fifth or the sixth person. And even that person might say, I can't help you, [00:52:00] but I think I know someone who can just stay with it because eventually you knock on the right door and there will be someone who will see the clarity of your idea.
and be able to help.
Alexis Zahner: A very inspiring and also energizing note to finish on there, Michael. Thank you so much for being with us on We Are Human Leaders. It's been an absolute privilege to sit down with you today.
Michael Sheldrick: Thank you very much for having me.