What we get wrong about Imposter Syndrome (and how to overcome it)
Imposter syndrome is often misunderstood as a simple lack of confidence. In reality, it is more accurately described as an “imposter phenomenon”—a persistent internal narrative of being a fraud despite clear evidence of competence. What sits beneath it is often a limiting belief: “I’m not enough.”
This episode of Live+Work More Human unpacks imposter syndrome as more than a confidence issue, reframing it as a deeper pattern rooted in conditional self-worth and reinforced by workplace cultures that reward over-efforting. Drawing on research, lived experience, and coaching insights, Sal and Alexis explore why high achievers are often the most affected—and what it takes to shift the pattern at both an individual and systemic level.
This belief drives a form of conditional self-worth, where value is tied to performance, achievement, and external validation. The result is a cycle of over-efforting, hypervigilance, and chronic self-doubt that can quietly fuel burnout—especially in high-performing individuals and demanding work environments.
One of the paradoxes explored in this conversation is that expertise can intensify imposter feelings. As knowledge deepens, so does awareness of complexity, which can widen the perceived gap between where we are and where we think we “should” be.
The impact shows up in everyday behaviours: replaying minor mistakes, fixating on critical feedback, over-preparing, struggling to set boundaries, and feeling unable to switch off. While these patterns can look like dedication or high performance from the outside, they often come at a significant personal cost.
Crucially, the conversation challenges the idea that more credentials, experience, or validation will resolve imposter syndrome. Because the root is internal, the work must be too.
A key pathway forward is self-leadership—particularly through developing self-knowledge and self-compassion. Sal introduces the Three Selfs Framework as a way to make invisible internal narratives visible, helping individuals understand and shift the beliefs driving their behaviour.
Self-compassion, often dismissed as “soft,” is reframed as a critical capability. It includes both tenderness (kindness, care, boundaries) and fierceness (taking action aligned with growth). Research shows it is linked to better emotional regulation, reduced burnout, and improved performance.
For leaders, the message is clear: culture change starts within. Environments that lack psychological safety, punish mistakes, or concentrate workload among high performers can amplify imposter tendencies and increase burnout risk. Modelling self-compassion, normalizing mistakes, and distributing workload more sustainably are essential leadership practices.
Ultimately, addressing imposter syndrome is not about eliminating doubt entirely, but about changing our relationship with it—moving from self-criticism to self-support, and from conditional to intrinsic worth.
Key takeaways
Imposter syndrome is not a confidence gap; it is often rooted in a deeper belief of “I’m not enough.”
High achievers are particularly vulnerable because they tie self-worth to performance and standards.
Gaining more qualifications or experience does not resolve imposter feelings when the root cause is internal.
Increased expertise can intensify imposter thoughts due to greater awareness of complexity (Dunning-Kruger effect).
Common signs include over-preparing, difficulty setting boundaries, fixation on mistakes, and chronic self-doubt.
These patterns can look like high performance but often lead to burnout and unsustainable workloads.
Workplace factors like low psychological safety, high pressure, and uneven workload distribution amplify the issue.
Self-compassion—both tender and fierce—is a critical skill for reducing burnout and building sustainable performance.
Learn more about Sally’s work at www.salcla.com
Preorder Alexis’s book right here.
Transcript
Sal (00:02.156)
Welcome to Live and Work More Human. How are you doing today today, Lex?
Alexis Zahner (00:07.922)
I'm doing well, Sal. I am super excited to dive into the topic today. And hilariously, this is our third take recording this intro because I think we were experiencing the very thing that it is we're trying to talk about when recording the intro for this conversation. So the irony is not lost on us. so two questions, Sal. How are you doing now that this is take three? And what are we talking about today?
Sal (00:26.232)
Mm-hmm.
Sal (00:33.418)
It's so hilarious that it's like we're living and breathing what we're talking about as we talk about it. We're gonna delve into imposter syndrome, and some researchers refer to it as imposter phenomenon. There's a few different ways we can look at it. But it's really this kind of sense of feeling like we're a bit of a fraud in what we're doing. And I know we've talked quite a bit about this topic over the years, Lex, and it's shown up for both of us in our work lives. I'd have to say also, you know, in my private life as well.
Alexis Zahner (00:38.311)
Yeah.
Sal (01:00.482)
I've had quite a few conversations around it recently, and I did delve into some of the research, and that's manifested in an article that I wrote. And so I really excited to sort of unpack a little bit more deeply what it is that really drives that sense of imposter syndrome that so many of us feel, and then what we can start to do about it.
Alexis Zahner (01:18.748)
It's a fascinating one, so, because reading your article and your research into this, it became very obvious to me quickly that there's more in it than we realize. I think a lot of us think that it stems from a lack of confidence. And, you know, you've been on the journey with me for the last few years while I write my book as well. And one of the ki things that I've kept coming back and saying is my biggest fear is what are the smart people going to say about what I've written? When you and I both know we're both qualified to be in this space, talk about this space.
And even when you are in this consulting on it, like your entire career and qualifications are in this space, I still you still experience this so often. So it's something that is kind of always with some of us as well.
Sal (02:03.032)
And I think this is really key to it, Lex, because so many of us think if I just get that next qualification, if I just have that title, then I will feel entitled to talk about what I'm talking about and have authority. It's actually not an extrinsic game, it's an internal one. And I think that's where some of the some of the interesting stuff we're gonna talk about today lies.
Alexis Zahner (02:22.202)
It's such a juicy topic, such a personal one for many of our community as well, Cell. So let's dive in. But before we do, here is a quick message from our podcast partners.
Sick. That went well. Rightyo. Let's rip in. All right, Sal. Now you have looked under the bonnet of what we refer to as imposter syndrome, and you've found that often it has connection to limiting self-belief along the lines of I'm not enough. Lot to unpack, but what's going on there?
Sal (02:36.014)
Slang. Love it.
Sal (02:56.898)
Yeah, so it kind of came about, Lex, because I just found myself having a number of conversations. You know, when you have sort of a theme of conversations in a particular period of time, you're like, why does this keep coming up? and it was uniformly with amazing, frankly intimidating people, these incredible people that I've been meeting, having coffees with, sort of networking meetings with. And we'd usually get to a point where we're sort of sharing what we're going through, what's happening for us, and time and again,
They were revealing that they were having a really hard time with comparison, with feeling like they're a fraud, they doubt the legitimacy of their achievements, and that feeling of like someone's about to tap you on the shoulder and say, pack your things, you don't belong here. And what I realized as I started to delve into the research is that there is very often a feeling or a limiting self belief underneath that.
Alexis Zahner (03:31.121)
Mm.
Sal (03:53.89)
Which is indeed, I'm not enough. I don't deserve this. I'm not worthy. So when we have that limiting self-belief, it means we view our self-worth as conditional, conditional on how we perform, the high standards that we set for ourselves. And it's a feeling really of fundamental inadequacy or lack of deserving, feeling unworthy, regardless of the abundant e evidence to the contrary. And it and regardless of how other people perceive us. You know, personally, I experienced
Alexis Zahner (03:58.398)
Mm.
Sal (04:23.712)
Absolutely, you know, continually through my legal career, I was just always trying to chase this sense of feeling enough all the way until I collapsed in burnout. and at the time I thought that chasing just meant I was highly ambitious. But it was only later when I looked back that I really started to understand that it was coming from a place of low self-worth. And it really all of this sort of came came together for me, like when I was having a coaching chat recently with a client.
Alexis Zahner (04:30.942)
Yeah.
Sal (04:50.124)
Who kept s kept saying, you know, I feel like an imposter, we're talking about imposter syndrome. But when we started to dig deeper, it was really clear that there was an underlying sense of like, no matter what I do, it doesn't count. And that kind of script going on. so being able to name it explicitly, I think, and sort of work through that belief, really become very aware of it, I think that's the key to unlocking some of our imposter syndrome issues.
Alexis Zahner (05:03.39)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (05:15.55)
Do you know it's such an interesting one because it's certainly something that has plagued me at different stages of my career. And I always felt like it kind of was indicative sometimes of where I was at on the Dunning Kruger curve as well. Because I feel like when you don't know what you don't know, you can just fly blind and think, I know heaps about whatever the certain topic or the niche is. Because when you start to dive deeper and you start to realize, wow, the depth and breadth of knowledge required to achieve mastery in something can sometimes feel insurmountable.
And so I've always felt like the more I start to know something, the more of an imposter I feel. And the more intelligence or information or expertise that I gather on a certain path towards mastery, the e like even further I feel away from actually reaching mastery in that as well. So it's kind of this contradictory thing in my mind as well. Like I'm about to release a book on a certain topic that I've spent
Two years writing about, but six or seven years researching and learning about, only to feel less prepared to talk about it now than I did when it first piqued my interest years ago. So it's quite it's quite a fascinating thing 'cause like my knowledge acquisition over that time is drastically better.
Sal (06:26.336)
feel like if you could get a metric on like level of expertise vis-a-vis how many footnotes we use, I think that'd be really interesting. Cause it's like when you're starting out, you're like, nah, bold claims, I'm just going for it. And then the more you know, suddenly you've got ten footnotes in a single sentence because you're wanting to sort of validate and create that veracity around it. So it's a really interesting trend. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one there though.
Alexis Zahner (06:36.062)
I know it.
Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (06:48.8)
my footnotes are out of control. My publishers were like, this is another novel in of itself. Like this cannot, this cannot, yeah, it's not working. But going back to your point of limiting beliefs, SL, because I think that's what, that's what kind of becomes our unlock. And when we can focus in on that, we realize that externally there's nothing we can actually do to make this feeling go away. And learning more, achieving more, getting more accreditations, certifications, expertise on a certain topic.
Sal (06:51.969)
Nark.
Alexis Zahner (07:16.52)
doesn't actually resolve our feelings of inadequacy when they're rooted in those deeply held beliefs about ourself, does it?
Sal (07:24.832)
It's absolutely true, like because I think we can spend our entire lives trying to sort of fill our cabinet or our bookshelf with all of these accolades to try and get that sort of validation externally. This is an inside job.
Alexis Zahner (07:37.436)
Yeah, totally. And look, one of the things you mentioned in your article was that it's typically people that on the surface look like they are the epitome of success, but underneath they feel like they're walking on lava. How does this lava actually play out in the day-to-day? Like what does that look like and what's the cost of that?
Sal (07:57.8)
It's a really good question because I think a lot of us think, well, I've got some imposter syndrome, but what harm can it do? It can actually do a lot of harm. It can feel like we're in this constant state of internal audit, scanning for flaws, replaying every awkward comment in an otherwise really strong performance, treating every critical comment as a verdict on your worth. So it can look like, you know, a C-suite leader who logs off after another long day just to mentally replay that one awkward bored question.
Alexis Zahner (08:18.835)
No, no,
Sal (08:26.926)
That they couldn't quite, you know, answer really cohesively in an otherwise brilliant presentation. Or, you know, a manager who receives positive feedback from multiple stakeholders but finds their focus just drawn obsessively to that single slightly critical comment. Or perhaps, you know, particular, particularly in a early career, I think it's a you know marketing specialist who's adding one more revision, one more late night check, one more weekend of just catching up. Because so much of what we do, there is no
Alexis Zahner (08:52.339)
Yeah.
Sal (08:56.994)
finite end game. There is no perfection. So there's this constant because we can constantly review, we do. And for me, it sort of came as a lawyer at this really cristal clear moment at about three in the morning. I was at my desk clicking away at mundan mundane tasks while I was waiting for a power of attorney to land from my co-counsel in Bulgaria, I think it was at the time.
And I just had this really clear moment of feeling like they're not paying me for my brilliant mind. They're paying me because I'm willing to be here at three in the morning, sacrificing all other all the all other aspects of my life at the altar of work. And I think it's this conditional self worth underneath it that drives, you know, the perfectionism, chronic over preparation, weekend catch up work that is isn't actually required, but is driven by that sense of.
I have to or they'll see through the charade. And it can seem really innocuous from the outside. And honestly, it can probably seem like a manager's dream to have someone con consistently overdeliver on every level. But it can become a genuine occupational hazard because you become a superstar, a single point of failure, others can start to chronically underfunction. And eventually you create a workload that's just not sustainable. And that's when burnout can start to come into the picture too.
Alexis Zahner (10:21.81)
Yeah, I noticed that was one of the things you mentioned in your article. And specifically you said something to the effect of in environments where there's really high expectations and more limited autonomy, I think, or your control is less, is how you phrased it, is where that can really come out. Because I think imposter syndrome or the the experience of feeling like an imposter can really manifest in those people pleasing tendencies and the
want to have everyone around you not find out that you're incompetent. And so you will stay later or you will work harder. Or I know for me it's just the boundary and like drawing that line in the sand around when I am working and when I'm not working, I'm not always on. And I find that just just the small thing of I'm not contactable after certain times to be really challenging to manage.
Sal (11:13.376)
Absolutely. And I think it's really important for us to understand that when we have that sort of fundamental underlying belief that whether it's I'm not enough just as I am, or who I am at my core is inherently undeserving and unworthy, it can very easily lead to these kind of behaviors like what I'd call chronic over efforting, you know, inability to say no, fear of being found out, and really seeing ev every minor setback as proof of failure. It puts us in a state of hypervigilance.
Alexis Zahner (11:39.602)
Yeah.
Sal (11:41.752)
hypervigilance. And I think you're right that I think in an environment and an age when disconnection is becoming increasingly difficult, that hypervigilance just becomes almost normalized. And that is a recipe for the chronic stress that leads to burnout.
Alexis Zahner (11:55.27)
Absolutely. And you've done a lot of work, Sally, and a lot of research around the risk factors for workplaces with burnout specifically as well. So what are some of the things that leaders need to be conscious of then if you are either managing someone who you think might have some of these tendencies or you yourself have some of these tendencies, what are some of those specific workplace risk factors?
Sal (12:18.188)
Yeah, I think it's when we when there's a very high workload and there's a lot of complex work going on and you have a couple of people on your team who are these kind of you know, high achievers, high performers, because they have this real drive and it's coming from this very sort of internal place, it can be very tempting to kind of just feed into that and
make it almost, you know, exacerbated. And I think it happens all too often. And I think it's actually very rarely truly uncovered that that is exactly what's going on until someone just leaves the organization because they're flat out, burnt out. So I think if you're starting to see that the workload is starting to veer towards one or two people in particular, then that is absolutely a a sign that something's going on. And I think generally it's when we have, you know, poor culture, when we have low psychological safety,
Alexis Zahner (12:39.758)
Yeah.
Sal (13:08.43)
And when there's any kind of shame around making mistakes or having, you know, our own personal needs met, these are probably signals as well. One thing I think that can be a really clear indication is if you have someone you're supervising and they make a mistake, and if they kind of freak out, if you can see that that's actually a really uncomfortable experience for them, there's a big opportunity for leaders to normalize that because we all do it all the time. It's actually really important that we are able to talk about our mistakes and
learn from them. So I think, you know, it's in the day to day behaviors as leaders that we can really start to shift there and role modelling.
Alexis Zahner (13:45.658)
Yeah, and I'm so glad you t touched on that. But before you do, before we go into that anymore, I just want to pause on this idea of mistakes because I grew up in a household where mistakes were not very easily tolerated. And so as a result, my brother and I would try and hide them. We'd try and put the blame elsewhere. We would freak out and like lose our temper and have no emotional control when we felt like we were being called out on mistakes because reprimanding consequence were just, you know, that was just how
How we were raised, you know? And in certain workplace environments where the stakes are higher. So, you know, we work in an environment where no one dies if there's a mistake made. But if there are mistakes happening in healthcare environments, in say aviation environments, heavy mind side environments where there's huge equipment and lives at risk, the fallout for not having a culture where people can feel safe to make mistakes and understand that.
That's actually a natural part of getting better at the job and it's really important that we share this, can be catastrophic to outcomes in the workplace environment.
Sal (14:54.126)
Absolutely. And I think, you know, sometimes I feel really lucky that I am a person, you know, the stuff that I do, there's no one's gonna die if I screw up or get get something wrong. But I also think we need to make sure that we're not using that as an excuse for poor culture. because for most of us it's not gonna be the case. But I think that doesn't mean we need to be lax in terms of creating an environment where everyone can
Alexis Zahner (15:01.224)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (15:08.552)
Definitely.
Sal (15:17.234)
share the ups and the downs, the setbacks. I mean, you just sort show me saw me walk into the room and like trip over a carpet really inelegantly. And like, you know, these are the kind of moments where it's like it's easy to get down on ourselves and feel like literally like that's it's such a small example. But I'm like, you know, we can sort of kick the self critic in really highly. And I think it's really important that we do, particularly as leaders, but also as colleagues towards one another, we that we, you know, really support.
Alexis Zahner (15:24.368)
Ha ha
Sal (15:46.112)
Each other to be able to talk about our mistakes, learn from them and grow and it just accept them as an inherently human experience.
Alexis Zahner (15:54.226)
Definitely. And without wanting to put too much onus on the leaders here listening, I do think this is a really critical thing that you understand because I think we often have leaders who come to us and want to work with us and they say things like, I want to resolve these challenges in my team. But what we know to be true is that one of the most effective ways that you can change your culture from the inside out is to
Sal (16:11.094)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (16:20.496)
address these challenges in yourself as a leader. So if you feel like imposter syndrome is something you struggle with and that's causing you to overwork or to create an environment that might not be psychologically safe. If you can't own mistakes or own challenges within yourself, you don't create the space for others to do the same. So I think it's really important that we posit there for the leaders listening that the most important part, the most important place you can start with this is actually by doing this work for yourself.
Sal (16:50.798)
Absolutely, Alex. And it's I think we so often get the question of like, why does self-leadership have to come first? I'm leading a team. I just want to focus on leading the team and get the sort of team on board. And it's like, no, we all need to have that really sort of often very uncomfortable conversation with ourselves about what's the norms, what's driving those norms, and delving a little bit deeper beyond the superficial behaviors into the beliefs that underpin that. Because I think particularly once we start to untangle those beliefs and perhaps even release their grip on us.
Alexis Zahner (17:07.582)
Totally.
Sal (17:21.196)
J ba behavior genuinely changes and culture does too as a result.
Alexis Zahner (17:23.646)
Yep. Absolutely. Now Sally, you have a framework that actually helps people to do this work and it's called the Three Selves Framework. Isn't that just another way of telling people to work on themselves instead of sort of fixing the system? Or what am I playing too much of a devil's advocate here?
Sal (17:40.95)
You know there's no such thing as too much of a devil's advocate with me legs. Let's go hard. Look, and I you know as that very much that I I'm very much of the mindset that, you know, it's we are using a lot of this the individual focus has been misused to individualise what are actually systemic issues. And this is something I speak a lot about, not only because of my own burnout.
And the systemic nature of its root causes, but also, you know, in our consulting work, we really need to understand that we need this two-pronged approach. So we need to be starting with our self-leadership, so doing the work as individuals as well as looking at the systems. So the three selves is really about going pretty deep into the self-leadership work. And it's about making some of these invisible stories more visible to us. It starts with self-knowledge, so getting really curious about who you are as an individual.
Alexis Zahner (18:19.134)
Mm.
Sal (18:34.988)
By knowing yourself really deeply and staying really attuned to signals from your body and mind, you can start to see those imposter moments for what they are. So it's this kind of manifestation of a belief that's no longer serving you. and I, you know, I designed the three selves based off of a lot of research for my first book, Protect Your Spark. And it's really just a distillation of all of this work that we need to do to fortify ourselves against burnout and I think to lead a really healthy and happy.
Alexis Zahner (18:43.902)
Yeah yeah.
Sal (19:05.058)
career and and I would argue life because basically it comes down to a way to just foster a stronger, deeper self-love. which is a bit of a bold statement to make in a, you know, in a work environment. but it really is I think a really important conversation for us to have as individuals. But it's also my work when I've introduced the three selves to teams is that, you know, it it fosters braver conversations, healthier boundaries, stronger engagement.
Alexis Zahner (19:08.126)
Definitely.
Sal (19:34.644)
and improved psychological safety because when you know and treat yourself better, that leads to better relationships and interactions as well.
Alexis Zahner (19:43.164)
Yep. I what I love about that, Sal, is there's a lot I love about that. But I think the first thing is that for a long time we've sort of compartmentalized the self as being an outside entity to the workplace. And I think it's only more in recent years that we've become comfortable with saying, you know, you do bring your whole self or at least aversion to into the workplace. So something like developing your self-knowledge and having
A relationship to self that includes love and self-compassion is actually really important because I don't believe it's until we possess those things that we can actually interrogate the systems in which we operate in as well, because we don't have that innate worth and value that we actually need to say, I'm not okay with operating in a system that flogs me to death. And frankly, that is where we're at with work in this late stage capitalism era that we're currently in.
Sal (20:40.342)
We absolutely are right there. And it's so true. And I think this is where the self-compassion component of it becomes really powerful because we know from the research and the article that we co-authored for Fast Company a few months ago around self-compassion being linked to greater emotional intelligence, lower anxiety and depression, reduced burnout. You know, it's really about improving how people process failure and criticism and vulnerability.
And I think there's a lot of ways that we can achieve that. There's a lot of paths to sort of deepening our self-compassion. but I think when once we start to see that we have intrinsic worth, that is, we believe we are worthy just for existing, it helps us and empowers us to ask some fairly frank questions about the choices that we're making in relation to our work. so for example, for me, that was a shift from just this kind of automatic pilot of what I'm doing and where, you know, I'm an opportunity comes on my path.
Alexis Zahner (21:27.72)
Definitely.
Sal (21:35.406)
For a corporate law career, I take it because that's what you do, right? But through deepening my self compassion, I started to come back to questions like what had driven me to become a lawyer? Was that a path that I now wanted to continue? And if my worth was actually unconditional, so not conditional on my title or my salary or anything else, what did I want my life to look and feel like? And so shifting from that sort of sense of like I'm always falling short to
I get to make decisions that align with who I am. It's really actually led to much healthier, better decisions and also just a much happier life.
Alexis Zahner (22:11.71)
Yeah. And look, I just want to pause for a minute on the term itself, self-compassion, because I feel like it's dismissed often as being soft and it can feel like a bit of an esoteric term. So maybe let's begin with that, Cell. Like, can you help me understand like what exactly do we mean by self-compassion? Is there like a definition that we can use to help people understand what that is, but also then maybe what some of those behaviors might even look like?
Sal (22:37.43)
Absolutely. I think one of the ways I like to frame it is basically treating yourself like a loved one, treating yourself like your best friend. Because I think that's a really helpful framing for us. If we're not used to the concept of treating ourselves with compassion, with care, with kindness, almost like you would a little fuzzy kitten or a little kid puppy or whatever, insert adorable thing here. But really bringing that sense of reverence to the person that we are.
and it does, I think, when we start to shift to that that sort of lens, it helps us make just much better decisions and set boundaries. And I think particularly in the context of work, we can be quite boundaryless and we don't have a lot of lessons, I think, early on in what that looks like and how we can actually start to I'm just gonna hear pause for a sec, Legs. I feel like I need to do that again. Sorry.
Alexis Zahner (23:32.72)
Okay, no worries. From the question itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sal (23:35.564)
Yeah, I think so, if that's all right. Yeah.
Sal (23:43.79)
Cool. No, no, no. good. I'll just I'm just just just gathering thoughts. Sorry, you're gonna have clip this off. Nah.
Alexis Zahner (23:43.957)
do you want me to ask the question?
Sorry, I went a little I just went a little off like the topic there as well. Cause I thought like it is a bit of a term that probably like I love the idea of it being about, you know, befriending yourself. Because I do feel like it's a term that people hear so often, but they're like, what the fuck does this nebulous, esoteric, seemingly like spiritual term actually mean?
Sal (24:09.42)
Yeah, exactly. So self-compassion tends to get a bit of a bad rap because we see it as this kind of soft behavior. And I think there's a lot of people who, you know, consciously or otherwise, think if I'm gonna be compassionate to myself, I'll never get out of bed. Nothing will ever get achieved. I'm just gonna get super lazy and kick back. But there are you know, self-compassion comes in different forms. And researcher Kristen Neff actually differentiates between tender and fierce self-compassion. So
For those of us who have a really strong inner critic, tender self-compassion can be incredibly important because that's when we do show up for ourselves, treat ourselves with real kindness, really set boundaries to protect our well-being and protect what matters to us. But we can also bring in some fierce self-compassion at times as well. And that's, I think, that's a really nice counterargument to the idea that it's just going to make us soft and lazy because sometimes it is saying, okay, well, this is.
uncomfortable for me, but in the interests of self-compassion and my own growth, I'm gonna make this slightly uncomfortable decis decision. Or I'm gonna kick myself out of bed because it's time to go and do stuff. So it's almost like having an adult in the room at all times who loves you. I think that's for me a really helpful framing of self-compassion. and I think it also helps us get closer to unpacking and and perhaps disentangling that limiting self-belief of I'm not worthy.
Alexis Zahner (25:09.084)
Mm.
Sal (25:32.406)
because I think intrinsic to self-compassion is this sense of self-love that means, you know, just for existing, you have value. It's not contingent on your title, on your accomplishments, on your accolades. I think for a lot of us, there's quite a lot of work in looking at where those beliefs have come from as well. I think it's very, you know, we often grow up in a very sort of achievement-oriented society and and and it's not
ill will on the part of the people, you know, caregivers to sort of maybe gently push us in those directions and want us to get high grades. but it's when our sense of value as a human becomes contingent on those extrinsic things that it becomes really dangerous. I'm curious, how's your journey of self compassion been, Lex?
Alexis Zahner (26:19.046)
Do know it's an interesting one because when the when the term was first brought to me, probably a decade ago now, when I was working with a coach who was really versed in this, I thought it was the most bizarre thing that I just could not get my head around. but it also was because I I hadn't sort of become attuned to yet some of the different voices that play a role in my mind and in my decision making. And so what I didn't realize is that I'd kind of spent
A lifetime on this autopilot of who I call the coach driving all my decisions. And now that I have the tools to reflect on that, I realize so much of that actually is my dad, my father's values, and the things that he wanted for me, and the success that he wanted for me, my my education, my sporting achievements. But a lot of that actually didn't come from me. It was just inherited by me. So for me, self compassion.
Sal (26:49.293)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (27:09.682)
Was the unlock to start to witness and understand some of the dialogue that went on for me mentally so that I could interrogate that and reframe that in a way that felt like a friend, felt like someone who was on my team versus someone sort of shouting at me to just keep going at all costs. So I don't think that anything in terms of my achievements or my output has changed. And I think that, as you mentioned, is one of the key things people think.
If I'm just nice to myself all the time, I'll just lay in bed or in the bubble bath. And it's actually not the case at all. I think I've actually achieved more by feeling like I'm also on my own team and not fighting against myself. And I don't think, you know, writing a book or following the career that I have or doing a lot of the things that I've done professionally would be possible without that. And additionally to that, I also don't think.
The rest and the joy and the moments of pleasure and travel and things like that in my life would have been possible without that either, because I don't think I would have allowed myself to fully be in those moments and be present in those moments and actually enjoy those moments without feeling the guilt of I should be doing something productive.
Sal (28:25.87)
Absolutely true, Lex. And it's fantastic to see now that we have this incredible body of research that proves exactly that, that when we act with self-compassion, we do actually have better outcomes in our career and beyond. And I think what you're speaking to is reminding me of the fact that, you know, the three selves, we can consider self-compassion is almost the mindset piece. It's really how we view everything and the lens through which we look at everything that we're doing in the work on that we do on in terms of our own sort of self.
Alexis Zahner (28:44.51)
Mm-hmm.
Sal (28:55.0)
evolution. self knowledge is kind of the understanding piece, self awareness is more of a behavioral component, but it really is contingent on having this deep sense of self compassion towards ourselves. That really has to be the starting point.
Alexis Zahner (29:08.156)
I could not agree more, so and I think again, it's just the foundation of feeling supported in your decisions. Like you're not your own worst enemy, which for those of us I think who grow up extremely achievement oriented and ambitious can sometimes be without even realizing it. We are sometimes our own worst critic and our own biggest barrier to our success.
Sal (29:29.548)
I think this is what's come through in these recent conversations I've been having, Alex was this kind of sense of like I was startled repeatedly by these people that I saw as incredibly successful, revealing to me that they've battled with this this sense of unworthiness. And so it's a really it's shocking, I think, if we were to actually have a genuine honest poll, you know, of how many people grapple with this. It'd really surprise you who the who those people are who are grappling with it the most.
Alexis Zahner (29:44.894)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (29:56.958)
Absolutely. Now, Sal, if someone is listening to this, is recognizing some of these behaviors in themselves, recognizing this story of I'm not enough, what do you think is the most realistic first step for people? that's not just a platitude, but isn't quit your job? Where do we where do we begin to manage this for ourselves? Yeah.
Sal (30:15.566)
Where's a middle ground there, perhaps? So I think one really accessible place to start is with self-knowledge. So this can be unpacking a little bit that story that you just alluded to of your own exploration of your identity. So where do these beliefs come from? And sort of gently starting to loosen their grip on us by identifying them and then questioning whether they actually genuinely feel right for us.
For example, I think for me, you know, my parents grew up in a time when security and having a profession was really important. I took that on and that drove a lot of my decisions. But when I started to question that, I realized actually that is innately true for me. So I think starting with that sort of self-knowledge piece, starting to question what we've been taking as norms and just as how it is. and I think also just as a very practical tip, focusing a little bit more on the
Alexis Zahner (30:45.158)
Mm.
Sal (31:08.494)
Positive feedback. Now we know we all have a negativity bias. So we can get, you know, 99 pieces of positive feedback, but that one negative one will sort of keep us up at night. and I think we're very, you know, conditioned to sort of focus on those little innocuous pieces of slightly negative comments and blow it up to be like the be-all and end all. So I think when we, you know, we can sort of consciously receive our feedback and
really allow ourselves to even sit with the positive feedback and take a few deep breaths as we're reading it to really allow that to come into us to settle in it in us. And of course read the the negative as well, but also keep that in context and keep that with that lens of self compassion in, you know, in its in its context. So seeing it as a learning point, but being able to, particularly if we're getting like four and a half star, five star review, like, you know, focus on the good stuff.
And really take it in, really let it in.
Alexis Zahner (32:05.662)
It's a really good point, Sal. And something I also just want to remind people is that this is an ongoing journey. You and I both know this well. We sit in this space where we have this beautiful opportunity not only to research this, but to help other human beings move through these challenges as well. And yet we find ourselves having these same conversations amongst ourselves, saying, wow, this is this week I was brutal to myself and you know, I I is I was pushing through this, or you know.
It's not something that's a one and done, and I think that's always an important reminder for each of us as well.
Sal (32:41.44)
It feels like, and I'm kind of a bit over the metaphor of an onion because I'm like, why does it always have to be the onion? But it's it is the the layers of the onion. It's like you sort of peel one off and be now I'm enlightened. And then very quickly you learn that no, a two day, you know, a day later I'm still just my biggest, my my own worst enemy still. but you're right, it's that is a great idea. I think we can you know, put it out to listeners. Feel welcome to let us know if you have any b better ideas.
Alexis Zahner (32:45.406)
Ha ha
Alexis Zahner (32:59.964)
We'll we'll have to find a more delicious layered fruit to use as our metaphor.
Alexis Zahner (33:08.67)
Other than an onion, who are we?
Sal (33:12.462)
Love it. Yeah. But I think it is, you know, it's an ongoing journey, but and it starts with awareness. And I think it also starts, you know, I think feel like part of self compassion is also having a bit of humour about it as well. so that we can kind of lovingly almost put an arm around ourselves and say, that you know, you're trying like you know, you're you're trying. It's kind of cute with that little self, you know, that's kind of cute. Let's let it go.
Alexis Zahner (33:35.464)
Totally. Now, Sal, thank you so much for bringing this topic to Live and Work More Human. It is certainly something that I experience, you experience, and our wonderful community experience. Your most recent article is now live on Fast Company. People can read that there. They can also find links to it in our show notes. And is there anywhere else people should be looking for information that you have written about this?
Sal (34:01.154)
I think fast company's the place to go, Lex, of course. hit the live and work more human dot com website for show notes, links, anything else you might want to find. But I think that's that's the go to for now.
Alexis Zahner (34:12.818)
Beautiful. Well, thank you all for being with us for another episode on Live and Work More Human, and we will see you next time.
