Romance, Cheating and BFFs: Relationships at Work with Rachel Voysey
Rachel Voysey - Registered Relationship Psychologist
Rachel Voysey, a Registered Psychologist, is passionate about helping people connect meaningfully with themselves and others. As the founding director of The Relationship Room Sydney, she specialises in couples and relationship therapy, addressing issues such as communication breakdown and relationships in crisis. Infidelity is an area of particular interest. Rachel has had extensive experience in the critical, immediate care of couples experiencing infidelity. She also works with organisations and HR teams to help them navigate relationships in the workplace.
Workplace relationships are a natural part of being human. Neither good or bad, they’re inevitable.
In the wake of the Coldplay Jumbotron scandal, workplace relationships — especially cheating and affairs — have been thrust into the spotlight. And everyone seems to have their own opinion on them, so we decided to ask a relationship psychologist for some advice.
In this conversation, relationship psychologist Rachel Voysey discusses the complexities of romantic relationships and friendships in the workplace. The discussion covers the inevitability of workplace relationships, the challenges of infidelity, and the importance of communication and empathy in navigating these dynamics. Rachel emphasizes the need for leaders to approach these situations with compassion and understanding, recognizing the human element involved in workplace relationships.
This is one of the most personal, open-hearted and revealing episodes we've ever done on the podcast. You won't want to miss it.
What you’ll learn:
Why workplace relationships occur, and how we can manage them personally and professionally.
Why infidelity in the workplace occurs, often stemming from emotional needs rather than just desire.
How transparency and honesty are crucial in navigating workplace relationships.
Tips for Leaders should to approach relationship issues with compassion and understanding.
How to navigate friendship breakdowns from misunderstandings and lack of communication.
Proactive communication tips to prevent toxic dynamics in workplace relationships.
How to maintain boundaries in workplace relationships to avoid discomfort.
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Learn more about Rachel Voysey here:
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Episode Transcript:
Key Chapters
00:00 Navigating Workplace Relationships
12:51 Understanding Infidelity in the Workplace
22:48 Navigating Workplace Relationships
25:51 The Importance of Workplace Friendships
26:46 Understanding Friendship Breakdowns
31:49 Managing Conflicts with Friends at Work
37:14 Compassion in Workplace Relationships
39:03 Introduction to Human Leadership
39:33 The Essence of Being Human in Leadership
Alexis Zahner (00:09)
Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. When you're here with us, you're part of the global movement driving change. Each conversation is an invitation to grow, to question, and to co-create a future where people and business flourish together. And we, myself, Alexis, and my co-host Sally Clark, are here to be your guides on this journey, connecting you to big ideas, bold conversations, and brave questions that will help you lead more human every day.
Today's conversation is with Rachel Voisey, who is a registered psychologist and founding director of the Relationship Room in Sydney. Specifically, Rachel specializes in relationships such as communication breakdowns, relationship crises, and also infidelity, which is very much what we look at diving into in our conversation today.
Now, Sally, this is a really fun but a very interesting and deep conversation as well with Rachel. I'd love to know from you, what were some of the biggest lessons that you learned from the chat today?
Sally Clarke (she/her) (01:14)
Yeah, thanks. Like I think it's one of the most personal conversations we've had on the podcast so far. And I think that was really refreshing in a lot of ways for me. My real takeaway was just how clearly Rachel reminded us of the human in these situations, whether it's infidelity at work, whether it's a romantic relationship at work, whether it's a friendship you're navigating in the context of work. We're all humans.
Alexis Zahner (01:21)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (01:36)
And even when it looks scandalous or it looks like a bad decision from the outside, we really need to keep coming back to our empathy, our compassion and, you know, good judgment around these situations, whether we're leaders or whether we're the person actually in the relationship. How about you? What's it out for you?
Alexis Zahner (01:54)
Yeah, I think even outside the infidelity side of things, just the fact that workplace relationships are so common. ⁓ And in fact, we shouldn't be necessarily labeling them as good or bad or avoid ⁓ that they're, they're part of what it means to be a human being. So I really loved looking at the romantic relationship side of things with Rachel and also some of the challenges we can face with forming bonds and friendships with colleagues in the workplace as well. I felt like there was a lot of practical wisdom in
Sally Clarke (she/her) (01:58)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (02:24)
conversation and insight that will help you and I in our working relationship moving forward but also that I'm sure our listeners will get out of it as well. this conversation is all about relationships in the workplace with psychologist Rachel Voisey. It is such a fun conversation. Let's dive in.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (02:42)
Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Rachel. It's really wonderful to have you with us today. We'd love to get started by maybe a bit of a confronting question, but we're going to talk today about, you know, romantic relationships in the workplace. Are these good? Are these bad? Are these an absolute no-go? There's something that both legs and I have our own personal experiences with. So we'd love to hear from you as a relationship psychologist. What's your advice?
Rachel Voysey (03:08)
I just think they happen. I'm like, whether they're good, bad, ugly or whatever, I just think the reality is they happen, right? Like you can't deny it, they do. And all the time, and always have and always will. So I'm like, I mean, I'm used to confronting questions. My whole world is living behind a therapy door often where only reality lives most of the time, or a lot more reality than you get when the door opens. So the confronting doesn't bother me too much, but I just kind of think you've got to deal with what's real and what's happening.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (03:27)
Mm. Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (03:36)
because that's what most people need. So I just think they happen and because they happen so much, we need to talk about them and we need to have ways to deal with them. And there's different kinds too, like there's times where people just meet at work and that's cool and it goes well. There's obviously tricky, tricky relationships. There's cases where they're much more complex and maybe there's infidelity or big power differential. So it's hard to give like one category of answer when I'm talking about this and often say that to people because
Alexis Zahner (03:43)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (03:58)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (03:59)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (04:04)
there are all kinds of different relationships that go on. And I suppose that's what defines ⁓ the nature of what I end up talking about with people.
Alexis Zahner (04:07)
and
Sally Clarke (she/her) (04:12)
Such an important point to really underscore that there's no sort of black or white here. And I think it is something, it's like so much of human experience, I think, if we deny it, then we're really doing ourselves a disservice because we have to acknowledge that these situations are coming about. We spend most of our time, waking hours at work. So it seems quite natural in a lot of ways that we would then connect with people there. Speaking for myself, my longest relationship started with a colleague I was working at a Japanese company in...
Netherlands at the time. And we were lucky in the sense that we had that same sort of level that we were starting at. So there wasn't that power dynamic. But we did have to go through the process of, do we talk to HR? How do we go through that? So I'm sure we'll unpack in this conversation sort of what then what parameters might be helpful. But I'm also going to throw to Lex because you've had you've had an experience with this too.
Alexis Zahner (04:52)
Mm.
I have, yeah. So my current long-term partner, who I've been together with over seven years now, we actually both met working together as well. And an interesting perhaps question for you here, Rachel, is we met, you mentioned earlier this idea of power dynamics. So we met in quite an interesting circumstance where I was brought into the company to then ⁓ effectively manage him in certain capacities, which is an interesting one. ⁓ And it was, you know,
we sort of navigated that best we could at the time where we were then separating that working relationship before we sort of entered into a romantic relationship. But can you help maybe unpack this a little bit more for us here? Because very often we find that maybe it's not colleagues on perhaps the same level, if it were in an organization that we're entering a relationship with.
Rachel Voysey (05:52)
Mmm.
Alexis Zahner (05:56)
Do you have any advice for navigating that power dynamic so things don't get perhaps messy on that side of things?
Rachel Voysey (06:03)
Yeah, and you're right, it often isn't because it's, you know, there's so many tiers of, you know, like not just power dynamics, but I suppose influence and management. Like it's really, it's probably when we really think about it pretty unusual that you're get someone exactly on the same kind of path as you. So I think that's again, very common, very realistic. But I mean, something you said is that you really sounds like you thought about it. And I think that's the thing, right? I think
Alexis Zahner (06:06)
Hmm, totally.
Yeah. Yep.
Rachel Voysey (06:27)
We can't pretend that relationships when they're at work are just personal, like they do affect the organization. So I think we have to kind of acknowledge that, that, you know, like we're very, we know it's personal and it's our world, but when it sits within a workplace too, it can't just be personal. So I think just being really intentional and thoughtful about like, how is this going to affect us? How's it going to affect the people around us? Are we acting in our ethics? Cause again, HR is not there to like police your personal life. They're just there to protect the organization, right? To make sure that everything's.
Alexis Zahner (06:33)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Hmm.
Rachel Voysey (06:56)
going as well as it can for everybody, though in its best form, that's what HR should be. Not always, but mostly that's kind of the intention. So like, again, I think if you think about it and you talk about it from that kind of perspective, and it sounds like you did that as a couple, then I think you can navigate it really well. And it can be like actually really positive for performance and outcomes actually sometimes too.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (07:18)
Can we delve into that a little bit more deeply, Rachel, in terms of the impact on organisations? And so perhaps for a leader listening now, they may not have this situation going on right now, but it comes up often. So what would you sort of suggest in terms of understanding what kind of implications it can have for culture, for team dynamics and that kind of flow-on effect?
Rachel Voysey (07:39)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's the most important thing when you're just trying to understand it as a leader is ⁓ that, it will affect because it will affect things. The number one thing I said to people is their transparency and honesty around it. Like, you know, as long as there's not kind of like secrets and gossip and if that kind of thing is taking hold around a relationship, that might be something where as a lady, you want to have some conversations, not just with the people in the relationship, but just about trying to keep like fairness and, ⁓ you know,
kind of all the good things we want to bring into a workplace around trust and those kind of things that help promote the culture around that relationship, right? So I think the last thing, think we're not, it's pretty obvious when something's turning a little bit icky and people are talking about it secretly or there's maybe perceived favoritism or any of those things or little divisions are forming, people get on their side. We know when that's happening, I think, as leaders. So we have to just be, I think, be ⁓
Alexis Zahner (08:22)
Hmm.
Rachel Voysey (08:36)
Well, the thing I talk about mostly mental health is don't avoid the problem. It'll make it bigger. Just go and have a conversation. It's probably the first thing to do.
Alexis Zahner (08:42)
Hmm.
What is so interesting about what you've said, Rachel, is in my experience, I felt like almost this tension of wearing two different hats. There was me in a newly formed relationship, trying to navigate, you know, a new relationship and what that means for me as a person, what that means for us in a couple. But then there was me in a management capacity in an organization having to think about, well,
At what point, you know, do I put a formal announcement out? how does it's quite awkward, you know, like, and because you're also navigating a new relationship, you don't a lot of the time want to put too much pressure on a fresh relationship until you've really had the opportunity to discover for yourselves what that looks like as well. So I really felt this real tension around, well, what does transparency look like? What is the right moment to have the conversations with my team? ⁓ you know, those above me, also my team members.
Rachel Voysey (09:14)
experience.
Alexis Zahner (09:37)
There aren't issues like gossip and perceived favouritism and those sorts of things you've mentioned. And I honestly, I don't know if I did it very well, but I found it to be one of the biggest challenges of my career so far.
Rachel Voysey (09:51)
I completely understand it. And I would say you're not alone there. And so many of the people I've worked with, because there isn't any support or conversation about how you do this. And I always say, what's the difference between secrecy and privacy? That's a big conversation I have with people all the time. I think you're exactly like, and as you said, you're trying to work out, are we a thing? Before you go and tell all these other people we're a thing, that's big. Sorry.
Alexis Zahner (09:55)
Hmm.
Totally.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:59)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (10:03)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:04)
⁓
Alexis Zahner (10:11)
Yep.
It's crazy,
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:14)
The hard launch being immediately,
yeah.
Alexis Zahner (10:17)
Totally, I was like doing hard launch with an email to the team, like, this is so weird. Yeah. ⁓
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:20)
Subject line.
Rachel Voysey (10:20)
And then when we bring up another one, you just don't know how it's, yeah. And that's why I
think two professions comes in. Like if you can keep the boundaries of the relationship fairly separate to work, and of course, you know, can't sneak around with, you know, people might see you around and out, but generally, I think if you're being professional at work and there's boundaries there, and in the beginning of a relationship when you're taking it slow, they normally are, then I don't think there's any need for it to cross over or any need to gain to think.
Alexis Zahner (10:29)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (10:48)
or am I being secretive about this? No, you're just protecting your privacy and that early development of a relationship. And I don't think there's any need to share that kind of thing too early.
Alexis Zahner (10:57)
Can we just double click on that a little bit further, Rachel? Something you mentioned there, this idea of boundaries. And that was something where, you know, perhaps in different relationships in the past, if my partner had been outside of the organization, if maybe he'd met me for lunch at work or visited my workplace, ⁓ I wasn't afraid to be affectionate. But obviously then when you're working in a workplace with your partner, I almost felt like I needed to pull further away and look even more detached.
⁓ from that, especially in the early stages, what are some of the sort of behaviors that are a no-go in the workplace when it comes to relationships? You know, like, can you help us unpack that? Because I know it's obviously something we want to be conscious of to not make other people uncomfortable as well. So what are some of those boundaries?
Rachel Voysey (11:41)
I mean, I think probably physical intimacy is one of them, because again, it's just not something we do at work and it can make other people uncomfortable. And I think anything as well that can feel more like kind of, I mean, obviously you've got an intimate relationship, intimate relationships are defined by the fact that you know more about each other than other people know about you. But at work, you don't want the to like there's some kind of collusion where you guys are working on it, working together and kind of having this.
Alexis Zahner (11:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yep.
Rachel Voysey (12:05)
pushing other people away from your special relationship that can feel less like intimacy and more like kind of threatening and some kind of in group or collusion. So I think just those things around trying to stay really inclusive, not do too much or preferably very much limiting anything physically affectionate and then I think everything else should be fine.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (12:27)
Awesome ⁓ explanation for us, Rachel. And I'd love to sort of pivot now to a different kind of relationship that we do often also see in the workplace. I certainly saw it when I was a lawyer in a very large firm, ⁓ incidences of infidelity. And it's a topic that has very much hit the headlines in recent weeks at a very sort of prominent sort of scale at senior leadership. Can you talk to us a bit about infidelity in the workplace? So that's two people who are in separate relationships cheating with a colleague.
Rachel Voysey (12:51)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (12:56)
Why do we see this happening and what sort of, would you describe the phenomenon?
Rachel Voysey (13:01)
So I kind of specialize in infidelity both privately and also within organizations because it is such a sensitive and complex area. And as we saw with the very public incident, just people have this massive transference of feelings onto it, right? So as soon as that kind of relationship is there, you almost have to expect that there's going to be a lot of strong feelings around it. ⁓
And my thinking on it, and then this is, mean, a lot of the work I do crosses inside and outside the workplace because we are all humans and we go in and out the work and we want to be professional, but we are still, we are at our core, still the human in the workplace. ⁓ Infidelity happens for lots of different reasons, right? You can never put it into one category. You know, I've worked with so many people over the years that have told me they never thought they'd be in the position of having an affair. Like it was high up on their values and integrity that that was something, or they'd experienced it secondhand as a child or as a partner.
And so they really had strong values and yet somehow they end up in these situations. So I think a lot of the moralizing that goes around it though never kind of takes it into account. We take the humanity out of it a lot, like quite a lot. And I think particularly in these public events and social media, the humanity completely goes, it becomes like kind of a bit of a stone throwing spectacle. And we forget that these are often people in really difficult situations on multiple levels, especially when it's at work. So.
You know, yes, affairs can happen. I think the thing that happens at work is you can feel like work is a different world. There can be this real scapeism. And I think a lot of people have affairs for scapeism. know, life is stressful. Life is hard. Sometimes we don't like ourselves very much. And a lot of what happens in affairs and relationships is we see ourselves through other people's eyes, right? So if I don't really feel very good about myself and maybe my partner and I at home are having a really difficult time, but at work I have this different persona and
Alexis Zahner (14:26)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (14:28)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (14:40)
Hmm.
Rachel Voysey (14:47)
somebody really likes me, maybe I really need that. So in an unhealthy way, I probably should be in therapy, but maybe I'm not, or, you know, I'm looking for that validation. So I think sometimes this work world just feels like a separate world where you can be seen differently, you interact differently, you can escape. And that can be one of the reasons that workplace infidelity occurs. I think there's a lot of what we would probably call, kind of call some kind of trauma bonding that happens at work. Like we go through high stresses.
Alexis Zahner (14:51)
And.
Mm.
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (15:16)
Yep.
Rachel Voysey (15:17)
together, big lows, high highs, and often also there's other things outside of work like social events, conferences, travel, alcohol, late hours that also create further bonding between people. So it really is kind of a hotbed of risk factors that if you can fall into an affair. And the classic reason most people think it happens is because of desire. People think, but you must be an affair because you're just really...
Alexis Zahner (15:27)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (15:44)
fancied that person or there was sexual desire. And yeah, that's true. But I actually think that sometimes that's not the biggest reason. I think it's much more about escape or emotional validation or some kind of loneliness or unmet needs outside the workplace. But there's this place where you feel life is separate. then, you know, often too, it starts slowly, right? Like you're having a bit of a wind, you're making a bit of a joke and suddenly you're telling a bit more to someone there that you would not normally confide in and the next thing.
Alexis Zahner (15:46)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (16:13)
You're in a vulnerable conversation. So it's a slippery slope with workplace infidelity, but there are just so many factors that make it such a high risk area.
Alexis Zahner (16:15)
Hmm.
That's a really interesting point, Rachel. And sort of something that resonated for me as you were speaking there is I've often felt that my colleagues understand my experience of the workplace and sort of see that side of me, which really does feel ⁓ like a way to feel validated. Like my career has always been a big sense of achievement for me. It's something I'm really proud of. And it's something that unless you're kind of in the trenches in the team, so to speak, you don't really see what that looks like on a day to day
basis. So I've always felt, you know, I've had colleagues that I've loved working with, we've really had that sort of camaraderie and that bond. ⁓ And so I feel like I can understand a little bit how people might feel seen in the workplace in a way that they don't get anywhere else in their life.
Rachel Voysey (17:00)
you
Yes.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (17:10)
And I think what I related to as well, Rachel, was the trauma bonding aspect of it, having worked at a very big, intense law firm and very sort of really busy environment. And you sort of get this real sense that no one who's outside of that world really genuinely understands the pressures that you're under and the high levels that you're being held to account. And so you really have this sense that it does go, think,
Alexis Zahner (17:14)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (17:36)
far beyond sort of just pure physical attraction to this sense of you really get me. And as like's mentioned in a way potentially that my partner at home doesn't because they don't, they're not exposed to these situations. And I think I've seen a lot, there's quite a lot of, you know, lawyers often do tend to date lawyers and I wonder if this is part of it as well because there's that sort of understanding of that going on. For someone, for a leader perhaps who's sort of in this environment.
Alexis Zahner (17:43)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (18:02)
⁓ Perhaps an HR leader who's thinking about when this kind of thing comes up, what would you advise them in terms of responding to this becoming known within a team, within an organization? How do you navigate that?
Rachel Voysey (18:14)
Yeah, I think this is, you know, again, one of those areas where often it probably hasn't been disclosed to you, you're hearing it through other people reporting it, or you're seeing it in disruption in the team or division, you know, so think a lot of the time the leaders I work with say, I need to approach this. They are the ones who have to make the approach. of course, because there is a lot of
shame and guilt and also a lot at stake because of these people have other relationships so that you know they're potentially going to lose their personal life affect their professional life so there's going to be a lot of defensiveness so I think you know as I said it's you know we're there to help protect the organization and the people in it so trying to make that approach in a really non-judgmental non-punitive like I'm just here to help understand this we've you know I can sense something's going on can we just try and unpack it
Alexis Zahner (18:57)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (19:03)
and with absolute discretion and confidentiality, which is super important. ⁓ I think if people feel that's possible, often they are looking for a line of help. And that's probably where I get called in sometimes because in these situations, it's kind of how I sidestepped both to a little bit of kind of corporate as well as personal work is it was often way out of the depths of the services normally available with EAPs or support services because it is such a complex area. I think.
Alexis Zahner (19:06)
Mm.
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (19:25)
Hmm.
Rachel Voysey (19:29)
The first step as a leader is to get the conversation happening, try to get some trust from the people who are in that affair so that you can start steps to maybe give them support together. Also looking at potentially how you can keep them safe if there is a power dynamic, like can you do some restructuring so that the crossover isn't so much there in ways that might negatively affect the business, especially if there's lines of reporting or lines of power that might actually end up being quite difficult for other people and could.
Alexis Zahner (19:38)
Hmm.
Mm.
Rachel Voysey (19:58)
look at favouritism or there can be much bigger consequences too. So I think really trying to help to reduce the risk of the situation, but it all starts with a conversation and you're really relying on one or both of them opening up and it's so hard.
Alexis Zahner (20:02)
Yeah.
Rachel, you mentioned this idea earlier of secrecy and privacy being sort of interconnected concepts, if you will, when it comes to infidelity and a workplace relationship of infidelity, where do we step in though? At what point is it our business as a leader? Like is there a line when it starts impacting the team or is it as soon as we notice, presumably, hopefully before everything hits the fan? Where do we actually step in?
Rachel Voysey (20:19)
to you.
Yes.
I think if it's either affecting the team or you really see some massive conflicts of interest, you know, and there could be further disciplinary action that occurred, like, you know, trying to protect the business as well as the team, which are not always the same. So I think it's, if you feel that there's effects on the team and it's causing division or, you know, even just call it, know, gossip will trump performance when there's a lot of gossip, people are not as they're not performing as well.
Alexis Zahner (20:43)
Yeah, okay.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (20:44)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (20:49)
Yep.
Totally.
Rachel Voysey (21:02)
So I think those kinds of things are where it's either that or you really see a risk to the business because there are maybe some serious ethical, you know, things going on that could affect outcomes for the business where there's going to be repercussions later. I think they're the only two reasons to really step in. If it's not affecting anyone, then it's really not necessarily, you're not there as I said to police someone's personal life. So it's fine otherwise. Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (21:26)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (21:27)
I can imagine it's a difficult one to navigate in some ways because it is like you're as you're saying, you know, we often think of sort of work in private as being these sort of siloed components of ourselves, but we bring our hearts to work. obviously, you know, these, I don't know if there's any data, but there's, I'm sure that the incidence of relationships at work ⁓ is, is high. So
Rachel Voysey (21:47)
Huge yet.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (21:48)
I
think circling back to what you ⁓ opened with this kind of sense of just really acknowledging being honest with ourselves. So whether we're the person in the relationship, understanding that this is different to had I just met someone who's working for a different organisation and we have that sort of separate lives. And then also for leaders to understand that then inherently at some point in your career, you're probably going to work with someone who's going to enter into a relationship around you and to not shove that under the carpet, not ignore it, also not pry.
and to sort of navigate that line in a way that is both, you know, in the interest in the organisation and the ongoing relationships that you have with these people as well. It's some complexity to navigate. I mean, it's human relationships, which I guess are inherently complex. As a relationship psychologist, what would you advise someone who's perhaps met someone at work and is pretty blown away? How would you sort of navigate those early days, the first steps in that sort of fledgling?
Fledgling relationship.
Rachel Voysey (22:48)
Yeah, I think you should just enjoy it as you should when you meet someone you really like. mean, often people do meet someone they really like and it sounds like, you know, it happened to you guys where it actually becomes a really great relationship and it's fantastic. So I think, you know, initially you should just be able to enjoy it like you enjoy other relationships, but keeping it mostly outside of work. And I think again, like it might have to expedite a couple of discussions of at least both naming that this look, we are having this relationship within some degree of workplace. How do we both feel about that?
Alexis Zahner (23:00)
Yeah, yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:00)
Mm, totally.
Alexis Zahner (23:17)
Mm.
Mm.
Rachel Voysey (23:18)
and having a really good conversation
about the impacts for both, you And then I really think outside of that, you know, once you've assessed the risk factors and you kind of, you know, you're both okay with that, you let it progress back to that point we talked about before, where either it starts to be something that you feel is really serious and you don't want to keep it separate from work. And at that point, I suppose you think about who you want to tell and how you want to tell them. And at certain levels too, you know.
Alexis Zahner (23:36)
Yeah. ⁓
Rachel Voysey (23:43)
It doesn't have to be a big announcement to HR. Sometimes it's very natural that it finds out when there's no secrecy, HR don't often have to get involved. They're know, such and such a relationship, it's good, seems healthy, doesn't seem to be crossing any work boundaries. And it goes on from there. Unless, and I suppose the only thing is sometimes when relationships end, it can be tricky. And that's another thing I think you probably should talk about a bit earlier is if this doesn't go well, how do we manage it? And sometimes people, or if it gets really serious, some people also talk about, you know,
Alexis Zahner (23:56)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (24:12)
whether they both want to stay in the same workplace, because that could also affect your relationship. You want to protect your relationship, right? And work into your life and your career, exactly. And sometimes you actually make a intentional, informed decision that one or one of both of you wants to go work somewhere else.
Alexis Zahner (24:14)
Totally.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:18)
and your career.
Alexis Zahner (24:20)
Mm.
Yeah.
That was certainly the case in my relationship. We'd worked together about a year before we made a decision that the dynamic just wasn't the right fit for us, especially having so much overlapping ⁓ responsibility. I felt like when we got home, we were still talking about work all of the time. ⁓ And so it just felt like a never ending cycle of going to work, dealing with work things at work, my partner being involved in that, coming home from work and sort of continuing to
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:47)
He
Alexis Zahner (24:59)
about work and in my case it sort of became a toxic thing because there was just no break from work. It just felt like work had infiltrated all parts of my life. ⁓ So it wasn't necessarily that my partner and I couldn't work well together, it's just that work just became everything because we had, it was like a, it's like when you have all the same hobbies together, all the same friends together, you kind of run out of things to talk about after a while.
Rachel Voysey (25:22)
Yes, you want to bring some fresh energy home sometimes. Bring a bit of fresh material back at the of the day.
Alexis Zahner (25:24)
Yeah!
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel, I do just want to make a slight sidestep, if I may, ⁓ into what I think is another really important relationship in the workplace. And certainly it seems that we see from the data that the idea of a workplace bestie or a BFF, as our millennials will call it, ⁓ can be actually really, really beneficial.
to our experience of work. In fact, the data seems to suggest that it helps us stay more engaged in our workplaces and sort of increases our overall satisfaction of work. One such experience I have had, however, is the falling out of a friendship who also happened to be a colleague, which in my experience became really, challenging to navigate in the workplace. I just wonder.
Could you shine a little bit of a light on that side of things for us? Friendships in the workplace, how might we navigate that and perhaps the breakdown of a friendship when we're also colleagues?
Rachel Voysey (26:24)
Yeah,
it's interesting you ask that because I actually, know, very weird thing that people don't ever think people do is actually also have done a lot of therapy with friends, which is funny because couples come and found us, but I've actually done a lot of work with friends because of friendship breakdowns. And again, it's one of these areas where trying to unpack why it broke down can be really difficult. Like a lot of friendships, you know,
Alexis Zahner (26:34)
Mmm. Love that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:35)
Hmm.
Alexis Zahner (26:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:39)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (26:44)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (26:46)
I mean, friendship in the workplace, friendship anywhere is good because connection is so key to our mental health. And everyone knows that now it's up there with sleep and exercise and eating well, it probably trumps them actually. Like if you feel connected and supported and there's, you know, those few shiny moments where you grab a coffee together in the day or you smile, like that will do just wonders for your workplace performance and your morale going in. But yes, on the flip side, I suppose when things break down, the thing I see most friendship breakdowns is huge amounts of misunderstanding. Like normally they start from
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:51)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (27:02)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:03)
Totally.
Rachel Voysey (27:15)
something happens, you don't know what you've done, you rack your brain trying to work out what you've done or what's been said, mostly don't work it out. Get a lot of rejection. Like normally someone will avoid you, like you want to have a coffee? No. And then by being a sick, they actually don't want to be friends with me anymore. So then you experience the rejection, which is awful because you start grieving your friendship. And then eventually, like you said, you kind of just drift completely apart or there can be a bit of like toxic kind of
Alexis Zahner (27:16)
Yep. Yep.
you
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:30)
Mm. Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (27:37)
so awful.
Rachel Voysey (27:45)
aftermath if other people in the workplace are getting involved on either side, right? And so I guess boring as it's going to sound because it sounds like the number one thing you'd hear from anyone in my job, but it's like, again, I think you need to proactively talk about those things and the earlier the better. Like if you're feeling signs that something is wrong, most people mutually avoid it. Like I've had people who've come in 10 years later because they've recontacted a friend and gone, why did we stop talking? And the reason that they'll find out is something they'd never thought of.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:49)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Zahner (27:49)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:00)
Yep.
Alexis Zahner (28:00)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:14)
Right. Well,
Rachel Voysey (28:15)
I mean, 10 years later,
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:16)
yeah.
Rachel Voysey (28:16)
doesn't feel tiny because of the time you're like, why wouldn't you have just gone to them and said, hey, I'm struggling with this, you know, and often they're around sensitive emotions like maybe feeling a little bit inadequate or could be jealous of your things are really hard to say to someone or feeling a little bit rejected. But I just think when you see any relationship, when your intuition tells you something's wrong, it probably is. We have very sophisticated pattern recognition, which we call intuition. And it is
Alexis Zahner (28:19)
Just said it.
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:37)
Mm.
Rachel Voysey (28:42)
and the most powerful form of intelligence. And when you feel something's off, back yourself and start a conversation. And you will most likely, maybe not save the friendship, you may very well save the friendship, but you'll certainly avoid that toxic, yucky, breakdown bit that then affects you. It's the opposite. You just don't want to go to work.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:59)
I think that's such a powerful message for all of us, Rachel, that sort of reminder that we make so many assumptions, we build all these narratives in our heads about what's going on. And what you were speaking through there also sort of reminded me a little bit of kind of high school dynamics of kind of people then taking sides and becoming gossipy and it become really devolving to a really unfortunate sort of level of human interaction. So any steps that we can proactively take and I know I've had
Alexis Zahner (29:21)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (29:26)
a couple of friendship breakups in my life where it's been, I've really tried to kind of bring that conversation in a way that it was really trying genuinely to retain the friendship, but navigate that challenge that we were experiencing. And a couple of times it hasn't worked. so there's been this kind of, yeah, exactly. I do, at the same time, I do really feel grateful to myself that I'm still, you know, always learning to communicate better, but that I had the confidence and the
Alexis Zahner (29:40)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (29:41)
their closure.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (29:53)
trust in the relationship to actually address this issue that I was experiencing, rather than just sort of letting it go on and leading to resentment and leading to ghosting each other.
Alexis Zahner (29:57)
Mmm.
Rachel Voysey (30:02)
Absolutely. And it comes back to me, everyone understands attachment styles when it comes to relationships. It comes back to the same thing in any human connection where we perceive possible rejection, right? So I always talk about attachment styles as it's like a movement, right? Like when you're secure, you can kind of hold your position. When you're anxious, you kind of lean in and get all scared and like want to really like pursue what's going on. When you're avoidant, you kind of lean back and go, I think I don't really need this anyway. I'll just, and the interesting thing I like to say about often define secure attachment is the ability to
Alexis Zahner (30:09)
Mm.
Rachel Voysey (30:32)
pursue connection, but mitigate and tolerate rejection. So when you go to have that conversation, go, hey, like, is something wrong? The thing that puts most of us off it is we feel we're going to get rejected. And sometimes we do. Like you said, sometimes people go, no, I'm good. You're like, you're so not. And please tell me. They don't tell you. But I think if you can just think, OK, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? Yes, you might get rejected. You may not find out. But at least you tried. If you can hold that thing of
Sally Clarke (she/her) (30:36)
Mmm.
Alexis Zahner (30:36)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (30:58)
I'm going to take that risk and rejection makes us feel like we're going to die. So we avoided it all costs. It's really primitive psychology stuff and it comes into things all the time and it makes us act very irrationally to things that should seem very small. So I think just being like really seeing it for what it is and be like, I'm going to pursue this. I might get rejected, but at least I've tried. I've really tried to be self-aware enough to do the best thing here. And if it doesn't work out, well, okay, it doesn't work out. Maybe.
Alexis Zahner (31:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (31:26)
I mean, I think most women have had at least have had a friendship where you'd never quite know what happened and it always kind of messes with your head a bit.
Alexis Zahner (31:30)
Totally.
Totally. And it's so interesting because I do feel like rejection in my life is one of the most horrific feelings. I hate it. ⁓ But I mean, Sally, if you don't mind, like, let's talk about us because this was a really interesting... ⁓
situation Sally and I were in Rachel, where we actually met doing consultancy work online. So we started in a professional capacity. We've since over the last five years become, you know, really dear friends to one another. Something that I always find really challenging, not just with Sally, but for me generally, is the spillover of addressing any workplace or consultancy conflict Sally and I might have.
and separating that from her, my friend, because there are times where, you know, I'll be frustrated at self, you know, for something that's happened at work, like that happens with every person in every organization. And I find my mind making little stories like Sally doesn't understand how hard I work or Sally doesn't appreciate my value or Sally doesn't, you know, love me as much as I love her. And then suddenly I'm, you know, off to the races and the narrative has got so out of control.
What would be your advice for someone who's potentially having a conflict with a friend in the workplace to kind of stop that from spilling over?
Rachel Voysey (32:48)
Yeah, I think you just need to, like if the conflicts in the workplace, I think you just need to also really take a little bit of a minute to yourself to unpack what is happening for you in it. Because what happens in most conflicts is we have our story in our head that we've very often wrong on it. You've got your narrative and you and even if you do address it, you go and address it. Even if you're addressing in your head, you're kind of addressing it in this kind of like attacking way. Like you're doing this to me, you're doing this thing and it's not right. And like you said, like you don't get me. And again, you know,
Alexis Zahner (32:56)
Yeah.
Totally. And in a cyclical way. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (33:11)
You
Rachel Voysey (33:17)
couples, friends, all communication will tell you that's never going to get you anywhere. So I say check in with yourself and really ask yourself, like, what is it that you really need that you're not getting? Or what is it that's really hurting you? And maybe that's something you could even just identifying that helps you soothe yourself a bit. know, do things awesome. Maybe go, you know what, this is actually about that. And when I look at it that way, I think I can kind of be okay with it. And if you're really not go to the other person, but don't go as we so often do when we're hurt on the attack. Like go and just say, hey, this is what's happening and this is what I think I need.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (33:21)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Zahner (33:32)
Hmm.
Rachel Voysey (33:47)
And this is how I feel and I just want you to understand. And most people will be very receptive to that. And as much as it sounds like, you know, I said, it sounds like active listening. Yeah, but it's active listening when you care is so hard because again, you think, my God, like if they don't get me, I'm going to feel so hurt. But if you say it that way, people hear you. That's often the thing that's needed rather than going on this defensive kind of attacking kind of thing. Just say it well, just tell the person how you feel, what you need. Most people hear it and you move on.
Alexis Zahner (33:58)
Yeah.
Hmm. ⁓
Rachel Voysey (34:17)
or sort it out
with yourself maybe. Self-regulation is a big thing, but you gain your need to go to the next layer of, what do I really need that's not happening with style or whatever.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (34:26)
I love those two layers that you've elucidated there, Rachel, because I think that's so important that kind of really checking in with self, which is definitely for me. And I echo what Lexa said, she's an incredible friend. I love our working relationship. I love our friendship. And there's occasionally times where I project my own narrative onto whatever's going on in our workplace. I'm getting, I think I'm actually getting better at sort of catching myself in that and going, like stop, just stop the story. Like, her right there.
Alexis Zahner (34:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (34:52)
So having that kind of understanding of self-awareness and also then self-regulation in that moment. But then also having the courage, I think, have a call. I think for us, it's worked really well where if there is something that we're perhaps, because we do a lot asynchronously, ⁓ and that's these flat words on the page. And sometimes it's like if we misinterpret them or we take it out of context, it's so great to have that cutthroat of just having a call and immediately rehumanizing each other and sort of reconnecting in our working and our friendship relationship.
Alexis Zahner (35:01)
Yeah.
Totally.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:22)
⁓ that really I think has helped us particularly since we've started working in the same time zone again as well.
Alexis Zahner (35:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Well,
there's a real thing now, right? Called Slack rage. And I'm, if you hit me with the wrong emojis, you can really trigger me. So it's pretty funny because sometimes what Sally puts in Trello, I'll be like, what the hell does she mean by that? And then then I'll call her and she's like, hey, I just wondered if this was the case. And I was like, all right, I definitely let myself run really deeply down a rabbit hole there. ⁓
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:48)
Look
Rachel Voysey (35:49)
on a whole year. Absolutely.
And especially things feel unequal. of the things I like always say to people to remember is there's a very central principle of all relationships that the give and take has to be equal on average over time. It doesn't have to be equal even within a month or maybe six months, maybe someone's going through. But over time, both business, intimate friendship, and this is actually when you strip down most of the people that have ever come in for friendship therapy, ultimately there's been
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:53)
up.
Alexis Zahner (35:55)
Totally.
Yeah. Yep.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:02)
Yeah.
Rachel Voysey (36:15)
breakdown in the perception of give and take. Someone feels used or they feel like someone's taking more than they give. And in business, this is big, right? Maybe you feel someone's not getting you, so therefore they're actually overburdening you or they're underperforming, but you don't know how to say that because also you're, you know, those kinds of things. I think if you just go, okay, are we equal in our give and take? Is there a discrepancy here? That can help you identify like, I think 90 % of what often is bothering you in a relationship.
Alexis Zahner (36:17)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:20)
Yeah, sure.
Such a fantastic insight, Rachel. I think we could talk to you all day about our... I don't think we need therapy legs. I think we're pretty good, but...
Alexis Zahner (36:42)
Literally. Yeah, second
Rachel Voysey (36:43)
I'm gonna have to go take a
Alexis Zahner (36:47)
guessing my choice to not be in therapy right now, to be honest. ⁓
Rachel Voysey (36:49)
You
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:51)
But incredibly helpful insights you've given us, Rachel. I think the attachment style stuff is really interesting in the context of the workplace as well. Are there any sort of, you know, when we think about romantic relationships at work in particular, any final thoughts that you want to sort of leave our listeners with in terms of understanding how to navigate this or perhaps a myth that really needs to be busted?
Rachel Voysey (37:14)
⁓ I just think from the outside looking in when we're around workplace relationships, you just want to be super mindful and compassionate for these people that they're in like their most important thing, their relationship is also tied up with maybe the other most important thing, their work. And like we need to be mindful of that and compassionate about it rather than gossipy and judgy. It's not a soap opera happening at work. It's two people with massive stuff on the line trying to navigate it. And when it comes to obviously the more I suppose ⁓
you know, the infidelity, the more scandalous ones that actually dials up not down, right? It's like two people in a highly complex situation. Yes, we can, you know, there might be lots of reasons that, you know, that happened. but ultimately, both as leaders, you know, trying to just remember that, you know, we need to support and humanize relationships in the workplace, not just treat it like we're ticking boxes on a, you know, conduct and risk assessment, which is often what gets done. at end of the day,
Alexis Zahner (38:01)
Mm.
Rachel Voysey (38:09)
and they're going to be going through a lot offering them support and compassion and projecting our organizations is really a really important thing to do.
Alexis Zahner (38:17)
Rachel, I think that's a very helpful insight. And it reminds me of this idea that we don't want ourselves to be judged by our worst moment. And so I think we need to give others that grace as well. While we may not agree or respect their decisions ⁓ that they've made, we don't fully understand the context either. And I think that that is really where as leaders, we can step up with grace and
Rachel Voysey (38:38)
every time.
Alexis Zahner (38:46)
you know, show that compassion as you've mentioned to everyone. So thank you so much for being with us on We Are Human Leaders. Rachel, this has been so much fun.
Rachel Voysey (38:55)
Thanks, guys. And I love talking to you. I'd love to just stay and keep talking as well.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (38:58)
Hahaha
Rachel Voysey (38:59)
It's been great
talking to you. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much, both of you.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (39:03)
Thanks for joining us for another amazing episode of We Are Human Leaders. It's been a delight to have you with us. If you'd like to learn more about the show, can delve into the show notes, get all the links. And if you'd like to learn more about the We Are Human Leaders movement around the globe, you can find us at www.wearehumanleaders.com. As human leaders, we're seeking to create better workplaces, to lead better, to live truer, and to be the change that we want to see in the world.
We are all human first and leader second. Thanks so much for being a part of this incredible movement. We'll see you next time.