You're Good Enough, Just As You Are with Lodro Rinzler
Lodro Rinzler
Lodro is a Buddhist teacher and the author of several books, including the international bestseller The Buddha Walks into a Bar. He is also the cofounder of MNDFL meditation studios in New York City.
A media-savvy teacher with a robust following across social media and his popular Substack, The Laundry, Lodro speaks directly to a generation grappling with disconnection.
His latest book You Are Good, You Are Enough, Free Yourself from the Trap of Doubt and Return to Basic Goodness is out now.
In this deeply grounding conversation, Buddhist meditation teacher and author Lodro Rinzler joins Alexis and Sally to explore why so many of us struggle to believe the simple yet radical truth: you are good, and you are enough — exactly as you are.
Drawing on his new book You Are Good, You Are Enough: Free Yourself from the Trap of Doubt and Return to Basic Goodness, Lodro unpacks the “trap of doubt,” the societal whisper of not‑enoughness we internalise from childhood, and how it shapes our identities, our work lives, and our relationships. Together, we dive into the Buddhist notion of basic goodness, how shame and guilt keep us stuck in stories that aren’t true, and why reclaiming our inherent wholeness is both an act of inner revolution and a powerful antidote to capitalist narratives that insist we’re broken and must be fixed.
This episode is for anyone who has ever felt like they’re fundamentally flawed, not doing or being “enough,” or trying to outrun the feeling of inadequacy through busyness, productivity, or self‑improvement.
In this conversation, we explore:
Why the title “You Are Good, You Are Enough” feels confronting — and why so many of us instinctively think it applies to everyone except ourselves.
The “trap of doubt”: the insidious inner voice that says “if people really knew you, they wouldn’t want to…” and how we begin to loosen its grip.
How societal and evolutionary conditioning fuel not‑enoughness, from the “sabre‑toothed tiger” response to modern‑day emails like “we need to talk on Friday.”
The “two arrows” teaching: the unavoidable pains of life (first arrow) versus the stories and self‑judgement we layer on top (second arrow) — and why putting down the second arrow is essential for healing.
What Buddhists mean by “basic goodness” and how it differs from self‑help slogans or a simplistic “good vs evil” framing.
Everyday glimpses of basic goodness: the micro‑moments of okayness we can reliably touch, like closing the laptop and feeling the sun on our face, or being fully present for a hug.
How capitalism and consumer culture profit from our insecurity, amplifying narratives that we’re broken and must buy our way into worthiness.
Shame and guilt as powerful but often invisible forces in our lives — including Lodro’s story of carrying guilt for years over a teenage breakup and discovering the other person barely remembered it.
Why “you don’t meditate to become someone else”: using meditation to interrupt harsh inner commentary, return to the breath, and build new neural pathways that support self‑trust instead of self‑attack.
How recognising our own basic goodness changes our relationship with challenge, giving rise to resilience, capability, and a felt sense that “whatever comes up, I can work with it.”
Extending basic goodness beyond the self: seeing goodness in other people (including those we dislike or who cause harm) and in society at large, without excusing harmful behaviour.
The quiet, rebellious act of rejecting “productivity = worth” in favour of living from intrinsic value and authentic presence.
Why this matters for work and leadership
As Alexis and Sally reflect throughout the conversation, our beliefs about our own worth sit at the foundation of how we work, lead, and care for ourselves. When we don’t trust our intrinsic goodness, we’re far more likely to:
Over‑identify with anxiety, anger, or busyness (“this is just who I am”) and make career and life choices from that place.
Outsource our values to organisations, bosses, or systems and live by someone else’s metrics of success.
Stay stuck in burnout‑fueling patterns where productivity becomes proof of worth, rather than a meaningful expression of our contribution.
Reclaiming basic goodness isn’t about bypassing pain or pretending everything is fine; it’s about remembering that we are fundamentally whole, and that this wholeness can support more courageous, compassionate, and sustainable ways of living and working.
Three questions for reflection
As you listen, you might want to pause and reflect on:
When does the “trap of doubt” show up most strongly in your own life? What stories does it tell you about your worth?
Where do you notice micro‑moments of basic goodness — those small flashes of “I’m okay” — in an ordinary day?
How might your leadership, your boundaries, or your approach to work change if you fully trusted you were already good and enough, without needing to earn your right to exist through productivity?
Learn more about Lodro’s work and order his brilliant new book at his website.
Watch the episode right here.
Transcript
Ep 1
Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to Live and Work More Human. When you're here with us, you're part of the movement driving change. Each conversation is an invitation to grow, question, and co-create a future where people, business, and societies flourish together. And we, your hosts, Alexis and Sally, are here to guide you on this journey, connecting you to big ideas, bold conversations, and brave questions that will help you live and lead more human every day.
And today, Lex, we have a favorite previous guest of ours. We're speaking with Lodro Rinzler about his incredible new book and this concept that you are good and you are enough. Such a powerful conversation that wended all over the place. What was your key takeaway?
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing for me And it happens every time we speak with [00:01:00] Lodro, is just this reminder that in what feels like an increasingly busy and stressful time to be alive, that we always have a choice to come back to who we are, and that we are already good enough.
And I think in such an urgency culture, it's just the reminder that we all need. And it was such a perfect juncture for me. We were just talking before the conversation about stress and overwhelm and things like that. And whenever I sit down with Lodro, there's always both what he talks about, but the way that he shows up is inspiring because I think he really embodies his work, and the idea that urgency is a choice, and our basic goodness and our basic enough-ness are also things we can choose to sort of align our attention and energy with as well.
So I, I- sitting down with Lodro is always such a privilege. Sal, and what was your takeaway from today's conversation?
Speaker: [00:02:00] So many moments that stood out for me, like, I think particularly is just all we have to do to find this sense of basic goodness is to come back to it. This is not some sort of external path.
It's not a pill that we can take. It's not a workout that we can crush in order to feel this sense of, "I am good. I am enough." It's right inside us right now. So it's about that recognition of that fact. Another thing that stood out for me was, I think he was quot- quoting his grandma or someone when he said that it's not about, you know, if you're making the same mistake 100 times, then that's one thing, but if you're saying making different mistakes, 100 different mistakes, then there's something that you can progress through there.
And I think that's really speaks to me at the moment, and that if we're repeating things, then that's a data point to say that we maybe need to change. But if we're having this sort of courageous approach, if we're really believing in our own enough-ness, then we start to experiment and live life with more courage and connectivity.
Now, Lodro is a Buddhist teacher. He's the author of many best-selling books. He's the co-founder of [00:03:00] Mindful Meditation Studios in New York City, and he's an absolute gem. Without any further ado, let's dive in.
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Speaker 2: Ludro, welcome back [00:04:00] to Live and Work More Human. It is, of course, your second time here with us.
Speaker 3: What a treat to be back. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: And we're so delighted today to have you back, um, to chat about your new book.
And our first question is about the title of the book, in fact. You Are Good, You Are Enough. Why do so many of us have a tough time believing these words?
Speaker 3: Great question, and, you know, I think w- with this sort of title, it's sort of in your face in a big way. Like, but wait, what, maybe this is meant for someone else 'cause I am not good.
If, if this guy knew me, like, he wouldn't know, he wouldn't think I'm good enough or any of it. We all struggle with this little insidious voice in the back of our head saying, "If people really knew you, they wouldn't want to... date you, be your friend, hire you," whatever your thing may be. Here in [00:05:00] Buddhist world, we call it the trap of doubt because it is this, like- I think that w- back when we were kids, we would have these, like, cartoons of people slipping into quicksand.
It's sort of like this trap that you just fall into, and it, the more you fight the, the more it sort of continues to swallow you up. But the more we reify that voice of not enough-ness, the more we live a life saying, "Well, I'm just an anxious person," or, "I'm just an angry person," or whatever we are, we start to take that on as identity that's not actually serving us.
But from a young age, we've been subject to the societal whisper of not enough-ness, this societal whisper of, "If you do this, then you get to be happy. If you get enough good grades, you get to go to a good school. If you get to go to a good school, you'll get a good job. If you get a good job, you'll be financially secure.
If you get financially secure, you can get a house if..." And it continues on and on, and then those of us who hit some of those markers, we say, "But I'm still not quite entirely happy. What's going on here?" Yeah. And that's where I end up meeting a lot of people. It's that sense of that voice [00:06:00] inside has actually lied to me, so maybe I need to try something new.
Speaker: And you used the word if a few times there, Lodro, and I think that's that, that conditionality that we experience about our worthiness that is such a trap for us. And I love how you also mentioned that it is often when we, the more we fight against it, the more we reject it or perhaps try to override it without acknowledging that it's there, we actually sort of embed it and end up living from it more.
Is, am I understanding that correctly?
Speaker 3: Yeah. We spin these stories around us, and it's like a spider spinning its web. At some point, it, it almost like becomes this cocoon around us that we're no longer even able to see the world clearly because we are so blinded by all of these stories we're telling ourselves about ourselves.
And a good 90% of them are not helping us, so why do we keep telling them? Why do we keep reaffirming these stories that actually aren't even true? You know, when we wake up and we, um, say, "Oh my gosh, I shouldn't have had that second glass of wine last night, and I said that awkward thing at the party," we forget that probably everyone else [00:07:00] is doing that, only they had four more glasses, right?
Like it's that sense of- Mm ... but no, everyone's gonna hold that against me. And that, even if we go to our host, we say, "Hey, I'm so sorry I said that insensitive thing last night," they say, "What are you even talking about?" Yeah. That story that you've been telling yourself about how you are a jerk is not true.
But we do that constantly, and that's such a minor example, but we do it with everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such an interesting one, Lodro. When I was reading your book and reflecting on this from a personal perspective, it feels to me that so often these narratives tend to be things we try to outrun. Like that, for me, is like the visceral feeling of what I'm doing when I'm trying to feel enough.
I'm trying to outrun the feeling of not being enough.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you nailed it, Alexis. It's the sense that when we don't feel like we're enough, we're going to run to the quickest thing that we think will scratch that particular itch. And for some of us, it's online shopping. And for some of us, it's, you know, uh, another drink or another hit of something.
For some of [00:08:00] us, it's dating, right? It, it could be any number of things, like how am I going to, um, fill that hole essentially? But you know, to mix words here, uh, instead of H-O-L-E, the whole point of this book is you're inherently W-H-O-L-E. You're inherently whole. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're inherently complete. You're inherently enough as is.
And there's this whole thing where this isn't me doing a self-help thing. This is what the Buddha discovered 2,600 years ago. And people can get really, um, like highfalutin about exactly th- what he accomplished, so to speak. But what he accomplished was he was able to see himself clearly and see the world around himself clearly.
He became awake. He became enlightened. So when we use those big terms, what we're saying is he discovered that he was inherently good, whole, complete as is, that he had that seed of awakening all the time, and he's not different than us. We also can do that. So even through doing some of these practices of meditation, some of the techniques introduced in this book, it helps clear a path where we start to peek through that cocoon, and [00:09:00] we start to, again, see ourselves and the world more clearly.
And what we see is that we are inherently good. It's not someone wrote a book telling me this. It's my own personal experience because I notice these little moments where I'm fundamentally okay, and I can have faith and trust in that.
Speaker: A really important point, I think, Lodro, that this is as much as your book really gives us- Mm-hmm
this beautiful guide on the how-to, it is very much an experiential thing. We can't sort of unfortunately, and I've tried many times in my life to, like, read books in lieu of actually doing the work myself. That is not how it works. Um, so it is that experiential learning that we have to go through. Um, but before we turn to the, the Buddhist experience and the, the sort of the Buddhist, um, ex- yeah, sorry.
Before we turn to the Buddhist experience and the way that you lay this out so beautifully in the book, I do feel that there is, there's kind of an almost an existential reason, I think, that we do have this focus on trying to chase down that feeling of not being enough, the reasons that we sort of really try [00:10:00] to, to show up and to sort of fill that gap.
And I think there's a kind of a fear that's instilled in us of perhaps being excluded from society or being left out that has sort of an evolutionary background, but it's really extrapolated and exacerbated these days through a lot of fears and a lot of fear-mongering. Am I understa- like, how do you see that?
Speaker 3: You are 100% right. The, from an evolutionary perspective, we cannot tell the difference between a saber-toothed tiger about to stalk into our area and, and stomp us, and someone saying, "Hey, I need to talk to you on, on Friday." It's, it triggers the same part of the brain that says, "Do I fight the situation? Do I fru- flee from the situation?
Do I freeze up?" And we don't need to have these big reactions in the same way, but we tend to get there pretty quickly, and then we start spiraling and telling stories. So in the book, I talk about what are called the two arrows. There's the [00:11:00] first arrow that happens where let's pretend you're going through a field, and out of nowhere, an arrow hits your arm.
Now, what we know we should do is we should pluck that arrow out and tend to our own healing But what we often do is then layer on the second arrow, which is all of the stories we tell ourselves about this. "Oh my gosh, you know, it's totally Charlie that did this, and it's Charlie's fault, and I'm... When I get back to the office, I'm gonna tell everyone that actually Charlie's a jerk, and here's all the ways that I know that he's failing at his job," and it becomes that.
So, you know, there's the first arrow. You know, suffering and pain does happen as part of life. There's sickness and aging and death and it's all sorts of things. And then the second arrow is the reaction we have to that, the stories that we tell ourselves that keep us locked in pain. And the moment we start putting those stories down, letting go of the second arrow, the more we can tend to the healing in a better way for the first one.
Speaker: Amazing. And you refer to this concept of basic goodness i- throughout the book, and this feels kind of like the counterpoint to the not good enough, not, not good, not [00:12:00] enough mantra that we tend to have in our minds. What is basic goodness, and how can we start to build a relationship with that with ourselves?
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's an interesting term. It came about in the early '70s from the Tibetan Buddhist teacher, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and then gradually entered our language here. And, you know, Buddhist teachers of all ilk, insight teachers, Zen teachers, other Tibetan teachers all tend to use it. So this isn't a term that I came up with by any stretch of the imagination.
This is sort of in the lexicon at this point. But the... I like this term a lot. Sometimes it's-- people just say Buddha nature, that we're, we have the same nature of the Buddha, same awake nature. But basic goodness implies something basic here is fundamental, primordial, uh, innate, inherent to who we are, is basic to who we are.
And good isn't a light versus dark Star Wars thing. It's not we're good and those other people are evil. It's wholeness, as I said before, the sense of enoughness, that sense of feeling grounded in who we authentically [00:13:00] are, and I think frankly, that's what we want. And also, I'm gonna go so far as to say whoever's listening to this probably has had moments where they felt that, where they closed the computer for the day and they went outside and the sun hit their face and they just relaxed for a moment and they were fully 100% present.
That's basic goodness. It's not this transcendental experience, so ordinary. And that's the idea, that we can keep coming back to these moments and string them together to live a basically good life, a life that is based in, you know, the qualities that we wanna cultivate personally as opposed to all the things that get lost along the way, the distractions, the work, the things that take us out of the present moment.
Speaker 2: This idea of distractions in the modern world, L- Lodro, feels like a really important point because I'll speak very personally here. W- when we have things like social media and the internet at our fingertips all the time, it's hard not to see how the capitalist environment really exploits our vulnerabilities of not feeling like [00:14:00] we're enough.
And certainly, I've fallen into many traps, from the online shopping trap to the, um, different sorts of smoothies and drinks and things I need to try and do, and exercise regimes that I need to try and achieve to make myself feel like a worthy person. And I think so many of us don't realize that we can be doing these things for our own health and wellbeing at times, but a lot of the times the underlying motivators might be coming from these feelings of, "Once I do this, I will be that person that is worthy, that is good enough."
What advice would you have for those of us navigating the complexity of this modern world and knowing that there are very much these capitalist forces at play trying to play into that narrative that we don't feel good enough to exploit that to make us buy products and services? How-- What advice do you have, or what could you tell us to help overcome some of this just ubiquitous and pervasive messaging that we're receiving?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is why I love coming to [00:15:00] your show because we are so in alignment about these things, and we're also like, "Yeah, that's sort of messed up that that happens, isn't it?" Yeah. That we live, swim in these, like, capitalist waters that are always saying, "Well, you know, you're broken, and we need to fix you, so here's a thing that you can buy in order to feel okay about yourself."
And then we do it, and then we still don't feel okay. So there's all these industries that make billions convincing us that we're a problem instead of... And they're saying, like, "You're basically a mess," when in fact this is, as you said earlier, the polar opposite. It's y- you're basically good. So there's something here about
We don't have to earn our right to exist. For us parents, like, we- your child doesn't need to be fixed. They're basically good. That productivity doesn't equal our worth, that we don't meditate to become someone else. It's all of these things that, like, we just haven't opened up the conversations around.
And frankly, every time I, I do a book, I feel like it comes from that place of [00:16:00] why aren't we having this conversation about how many of us are just dwelling in the sense of self-doubt and self-flagellation of not enoughness, and how that's not who we really are.
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 3: So the idea here is, like, if we actually remembered that we're basically good and that the people we encounter are basically good, the world would look radically different.
So the revolution here isn't, as you said, self-improvement. It's, it's that sense of self-recognition. It's recognizing that you're already whole, complete, and that the moment we stop trying to become enough is the moment we really start living.
Speaker: I love that you say this, use this word self-recognition, LaJoy, because it is a recognition of what is actually inherently true.
And in the frameworks that I've used, uh, around burnout prevention and helping people come to a place where they really do prioritize their wellbeing so that they don't experience burnout, particularly in a work context, the foundation for me has been this sense of you have to believe in your own intrinsic worth.
Because as soon as you move out of that, the decisions that you make, the ways that you [00:17:00] behave will be reactive and will be according to the, the values of someone else. You'll be taking on someone else's life, as it were, or lens for your navigation of life itself. So I think it's a really important point that there is-- it's, it's not even a place that we have to go to.
It's not, not something outside of us. It's simply a recog- recognition of the truth as it exists right now. And I also love that you allude to this little bit res- rebellious act that I think this is, because it does mean overcoming and kind of overriding a lot of that messaging that we receive, which is very pervasive and really, you know, really convincing.
And I think particularly when we're feeling insecure, we can really become very sort of, you know, succumb to that messaging quite strongly. For me, also personally, a thing that's got in the way, I think at times, and feels like it's very sort of at an intersection with a feeling of not being good and not being enough, which I have to say, I had a therapy session yesterday, and these very same concepts keep coming up.[00:18:00]
You know, shame is really central to so many of our experiences, and I think also something that capitalism can kind of play off of. How do guilt and shame get in the way of us developing this deep belief in our own basic goodness?
Speaker 3: I love this question, and it is such a powerful one because that's another thing that we all struggle with and none of us talk about.
You know? And I, I share a story in the book about when I was 17 years old, I did my first month-long meditation retreat, and about three weeks in, the thought occurred to me that I'd been really insensitive in breaking up with the, uh, young lady that I'd been dating before I left. I felt really guilty. And once I make up my mind that I've done a bad thing, I will perpetuate that story, 'cause I was one of those, "Well, you should know."
But like I... I- it really... And again, I was 17 at the time. Um, but I dwelled on it for days, 'cause you don't have a lot to do in meditation retreats. Really beated my, beat myself up. [00:19:00] And I said, "Okay. When I get out of this thing, I'm gonna go back home, and I'm gonna apologize to this person. I'm gonna try and make amends."
And I got home, and this person had actually moved away Flash forward years later, this is, this is dating myself, I got a notification on a brand new social network called Facebook and a friend request from this person. And so we began chatting on the site and sort of saying, "Oh, how are you? Where are you living these days?"
And not long in, I said, "Hey, listen, I feel really badly about how I ended things, and I know it's been many years, but I wanted to catch up and I wanted to apologize for real." And she goes, "That's so funny. I don't remember it like that at all." "But it'd be great to catch up." You know, and it was really b- 'cause I had really beat myself up over that, and I continued to beat myself up over things that, you know, happened decades ago.
Um, you know, and that's just part [00:20:00] of the voice that comes up. But sha-sha, uh, sorry, shame and guilt, they come up to ev- for everyone. You know, that was a very almost, uh, fun story from when I was very, very young, but it can just be you, you know, have a loved one passed away and you feel shame that you didn't spend more time with them before they went.
It could be a, it could be any number of things. There's so many versions. And it's one of those things where is if the story is actually serving us, that's one thing. But if the story is just keeping us locked in pain and it's not helping anyone, then we need to actually let it go. So, you know, I think the idea that we all make mistakes, every human being makes mistakes, and, um, we can learn from them.
I was on the board of a homeless aid organization, uh, sorry, an organization for unhou- Let me take that again if I can. Old habits. I was on the board of a organization for unhoused youth, and I led a meditation for a bunch of teenagers. And afterwards, [00:21:00] there was this guy and he came up to me and he said, "Hey, uh, what you talked about with mistakes and shame actually really resonated.
My grandmother always used to say, 'One hundred different mistakes are progressive. One hundred of the same mistake is regressive.'" And I think that's a really interesting one because if we keep making the same mistakes, we need to find ways of talking with people, seeking help, things that can help us out of that rut.
But if we make a mistake and then we learn from it and we continue on in our life, I think that there's something really, I don't wanna say positive, 'cause, uh, maybe it hurt us, maybe it hurt someone else. But there's, there's something positive that can come out of that, and we can change and become better people through it.
I always joke that, like, there's a couple ways to p- follow in the spiritual path, and one is to get everything right the first time, and I don't know anyone who's ever done that. And then the other one is to continue to learn as we go
Speaker 2: It's such a
Speaker 3: powerful- So there's some sense of, like, self-compassion.
Sorry, I didn't answer the question, but, like, we need to have self-compassion for ourselves around those things. Yeah. Sorry, Alexa, did I cut you off?
Speaker 2: No. It, it's such a [00:22:00] powerful point, and that was certainly the term that was coming to mind for me, this idea of self-compassion. And I sort of had this word coming up for me while you were speaking there around this idea of, like, atonement.
I think so many of us feel compelled to spend our lives trying to atone for these mistakes, um, or misgivings we've made, possibly as far back as childhood. I know for me, some of my patterns, I really can't put a finger on perhaps where the need, um, to not be that person has come from. Um, and Sally and I were speaking earlier in this week, um, and this is sort of a gender-specific example, but this idea of wanting to be a good girl growing up, um, felt so powerful for me.
So any time that I did something that was perhaps unkind or made a mistake or was disrespectful at the time, it feels still to this day as, like, a mid-30-year-old quite viscerally painful, this idea that I'm not aligning to my parents' expectation of being a good girl. And I think I still continue to live my life as an adult [00:23:00] trying to atone for all the ways in my past when I haven't been a good person or a good girl or enough in those circumstances.
And it was only really in quite recent years that I've come to this concept of self-compassion. Um, and I, I do find it to be one of the most challenging things to integrate as an individual, and one that I still trip up on a lot. I do find myself berating myself for mistakes and things like that still.
But to me, it does feel like a bit of an unlock, um, or when we can start to sort of understand it and integrate it and meet ourselves where we are in the way we would meet a person or a friend dealing with these challenges. It feels to me like the, the beginning of moving through some of this, like, stuck in a narrative around what you're saying here.
Speaker 3: 100%. And, um, I think, for instance, Hom, you didn't see me just, like, light up 'cause I, I just keep agreeing with everything that our two friends are saying here. But you know, I, I was reminded of this talk that, um, a friend, a [00:24:00] mentor, Sharon Salzberg, gave where she said we would never- actually treat anyone the way that we treat ourselves.
And in fact, if someone came up to a friend of yours and started telling them the things that you might say to yourself, like, you would immediately get involved and say, "You can't do that. You can't talk to my friend that way." Mm. And we do this all the time. We do it to ourselves all the time, but we don't have that same reaction of, "No, you can't talk to me like that," right?
'Cause it's us- Yeah ... that's doing it. The, you know, the call's coming from inside the house. But i- frankly, i- i- if we're going to spend all of our mental energy on making ourselves miserable, we're gonna have a miserable life. That's the end of it. It's ju- it, it-- I'm sorry to be so, like, brusque about these things, but, like, we have to learn to work with the mind and start treating ourselves, as you said, with self-compassion, so that we actually live a life that is based in freedoms, compassion, kindness, the things that we wanna cultivate during the short time that we have.[00:25:00]
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more, literally. And I do feel though, as someone who started on this journey, you know, in adulthood, that sometimes because we've spoken to ourselves in that way for so long, it can actually be hard to even recognize or identify that there can be another way. That's just always been the inner narrative.
And so the idea for me around speaking to myself with respect or speaking to myself with loving kindness as I would a friend or a relative was bewildering. I did not even realize that there had been another option 'cause it was just the voice that had always been there
Speaker 3: Yeah, beautifully put. And I am guessing there are a lot of people listening who are nodding along with you because that is not uncommon.
And even if we start to do some of the things that we talked about, like, you know, meditation and so on, it takes a long time to dismantle that voice, and it takes a long time just to even say, "Oh, that I don't have to buy into that voice," just as a starting point. But you, you know... I, [00:26:00] I was reminded of another story that I share in the book is, um, a friend of mine, Neil, who, um, knew he was gay from a young age and did receive a lot of voices in his life of, "Something might be wrong with you if that's the case."
And ultimately, he prevailed and, and came out and, you know, continued to build confidence, and that that's not true. But just the idea of basic goodness, when he first heard that concept, it blew his mind because it was like, "Wait, I've been good all along? I've-- this entire time while people have said, 'No, that's not true,' I...
they were wrong and I actually am?" Huge. Because it's just such a perspective shift other than I- I've now proven that I'm okay or something like that. Yeah. It's just, no, you were okay all along, and it's really effing unfortunate that people would ever judge you and tell you that you were not.
Speaker 2: And it's such an interesting reframe, Lodro, because even as you were speaking there, I kind of felt this [00:27:00] feeling of the difference between having to prove that I'm, that I'm worthy all along versus just choosing that I've been worthy all along.
It feels like the difference between coming up against a brick wall versus the wall almost just vanishing into, into thin air. It doesn't exist. It's sort of, um... And I'm not saying it's as easy as that because it's certainly not, but it is fundamentally a choice to, to believe this. And I wonder, could you help us understand what might start to change in our life when we do start to believe for ourselves that we are good enough in our lives?
I would
Speaker 3: be glib and just say everything. But I do think I mean, you know, it's like this all, you know, cure-all tonic or something. It- it's- Mm-hmm ... what we're talking about On a very practical level, here I am meditating, I'm being with the breath, a thought comes up like, "Oh my God, you shouldn't have said that on that podcast."
And then you acknowledge the thought and you come right back to the breath, right? So that's a literal [00:28:00] retraining and rewiring of the brain that allows us new neural pathways of I don't have to chase after that story that I've told myself for however long. Then on a practical level, when we're back and we're present, we say, "Oh, in this moment I'm okay."
And we start to develop, I used this term earlier, faith or trust in the experience of okayness. Like, "Oh, maybe that's actually who I am." The more we start to notice those glimpses, and again, I use the example of stepping outside and feeling the warmth on your skin, and you're in that moment- Mm ... you're okay.
You know, um, spending time with my daughter and, you know, she will call me out inadvertently just be like, notice... She's like, "What are you thinking?" I'm like, "Oh my God, is that obvious, huh? Great, I'm here with you." She's like, "Do you want a hug?" I was like, "Yes, let's do a hug," and then I will be 100% present for that hug.
Is in that's basic goodness. There's basic goodness in that moment and in that interaction. So there is these little mo- but we have to start recognizing them, and then it's like piecing them together so that we live a life based in this thing. And it's [00:29:00] even just having those tiny recognitions of I'm okay in this moment can build confidence in maybe that's who I really am.
So what, what changes is the actual question that you asked. Our whole perspective on how we live our life. It's not everything is a mess and I'm effed. It's everything is workable because I'm basically good. Whatever comes up when there are challenges, because there's challenges part of life, doesn't mean I'm bad or wrong or in-incapable of fixing it.
I actually... There's a sense of resilience, capability, strength that comes out of basic goodness that says, "I can handle whatever comes up because I'm basically good. I'm basically enough." And from there, we start to recognize it in other people. So the book itself goes from this arc of I'm basically good into other people are basically good too.
And it's not just the people we like. It's also the people we don't know, which is a massive amount of people. And even, and this is where I will probably get a lot of pushback over the time, the people we don't like, the people that we think are jerks, the people who we think are actually actively [00:30:00] causing harm, that they also have basic goodness and are also acting out of confusion, not basic goodness, to be very clear.
It's not like they're basically good and cause, you know, and that goodness manifests as harm. It's like opposite. They have-- They're lost in the cocoon to the extent that they don't even know it's there. So there's that, and then it's society is basically good is the final section, which is a really controversial statement because society feels really on fire and not good right now.
Speaker: So much that you've just said, uh, Lodro, that we can unpack. For me, a couple of things. One is that I think there's this awareness that we have to sort of start with, of sort of understanding and seeing how these beliefs that we've had, um, partic- you know, over years have such an impact on how we perceive the world and also how we interact with it.
And I think for me, at times there's been sort of a feeling of, "This is so big and so pernicious, and just I don't know if I'm ever gonna overcome this." But I think what you spoke to, these kind of m- micro moments that we can build in of starting to dislodge that [00:31:00] belief and start to experience our own basic goodness, even in fleeting moments.
But those fleeting moments start to build up. Not only do they improve those capacities that we have to be present in every moment, but they also really change our perspective, and I think give rise to our ability to perceive both others and society at large as being basically good. Because I, I think this is such a, an important one for all of us to be really courageous around at this point in our history as well.
I think it's very easy for us to succumb to narratives around, "That person is evil. Those people are bad." It's kind of comforting to have those stories told and for us to just believe in them automatically, and it takes some courage and some curiosity, I think, for us to flip the script. And we certainly, I think in that section in your book around society being basically good, you're probably gonna get some pushback there, a- agreed.
But I think it is it is a really important one for us to be focusing on right now, [00:32:00] because it shifts how we think about the problems that we're facing in the world, even at a global level. And I think it's shifted in a way that actually empowers us to make change, rather than just succumbing to these pervasive narratives of, "This is just what the truth is.
This is, uh, just how humans are. This is just how societies are, or religions, or people en masse." I think it empowers us. Can you give us just a couple of points to, uh, stimulate our thinking around this concept that society is basically good?
Speaker 3: Yes. And- I appreciate you sharing all of that. I, I think when we look at society, there's two ways that I like to look at it.
One is society is the groups dimension. It's me, plus the people I like, plus the people I don't know, which is a massive amount of people, and the people I don't like. And that's society. It's not something out there. And I think that's one of the issues we often have that, as you said, we sort of push it away and say, "It's, it's out there, and it's someone I read about on the news or whatever, and I can write them off, and [00:33:00] I-- they don't have to think about them being a human being that..."
As Brené Brown, the author, once said, you know, "It's hard to hate people up close." Because if they-- if that person was your neighbor and, you know, shoveled your driveway sometimes, it'd be really hard to carry the same level of animosity no matter what they're doing , which is not to excuse any of anyone's behavior.
But it has that quality of, you know, it's easy to write someone off out there. But when we say, "I'm part of society, this is part of what I'm co-creating it," it becomes powerful. So the second thing there is what I call sort of mini societies. So here's the interesting thing. We are creating a mini society right now.
It's the three of us and then whoever is listening to this. So if you are listening to this, you're part of this society. You're part of this community. And I, I think, you know, both of you would agree, like this is an active community of people who really care, have s- share similar values, want to support one another.
There's something very powerful to that. And if you find any good in this, hopefully you then go to your work or your family or [00:34:00] your caretaking situation or whatever it might be, and you bring that with you, and you bring it into that mini society. So my mini society here is, uh, me and my wife and our child and our two dogs and four fish.
It used to be five. Please don't tell my daughter. She hasn't noticed. And you know, but like that's our society right now, and there's certain things that we do, like we don't like to bark, and there's certain things that, you know, we emphasize, that we like to eat together, things like that. So like there's certain standards within this society that, you know, I'm looking down the street at my neighbor, you know.
I imagine his kids are a little older. Maybe they don't have that same sort of dynamic. It's just a different family society. So we all-- we're taking place in, in these societies all the time. When I go to the gym, there's my gym society. When I work- meet with my meditation groups, it's my meditation group society.
Like, there's so many. And we know when we're in a neighborhood or we're in a small group of people, I'm having an impact on these people, [00:35:00] positive or negative. But it's like throwing a stone in a pool of water. We don't know where those ripples will always go. We may not always see them. And I think that's where we get stuck, and I think that's where we get fall into despair instead of hope.
Because when I do something that I like to think is positive, like releasing a book telling people that they're basically good, I don't get to see the r- I don't get to see everyone who h- reads it. I don't hear from them. I have no idea what the impact may be. Maybe some people reach out and say, "Hey, I appreciated this book.
It helped me during a time that I needed it." That would be huge. I get those emails sometimes from previous books. It means the world to me when people do that. And I have to assume that there's probably all sorts of other ripples out there. So we don't-- because we don't get the one-to-one thing that like, you know, you go on Facebook and you comment something negative and someone replies to you, and you reply to th- i- it's like a one-to-one thing.
You're like, "Oh, I'm doing something." It feels like it's triggering this part of the brain that's saying like, "Oh, I'm fighting for something," or, "I'm [00:36:00] proving a point and I'm getting it right." And it's not actually helping anyone. Mm-hmm. It's probably just the two of you letting off steam.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But it feels like we're doing a thing, that there's an impact that's immediately being felt.
And the things that are actually more impactful are the more subtle things. How someone shows up for another person when a family member dies. How we show up for one another when there's a national tragedy. These sorts of things are quiet, and they are not as impactful, im- like immediately visibly impactful, but they're actually much more impactful later on.
So I, I think that's where we fall into the issue, that we ignore the truth of interdependence, that we all are part of this society, and by throwing a positive action out there, we actually are influencing it, even if we don't see all of the ripples.
Speaker 2: It's such an important point, Lodro, because I think when we use the term even of society, often, as you mentioned, we consider this to be this nebulous other world concept.
But what we forget is that fundamentally what a society [00:37:00] is, is comprised of individual beings, one of which we are included. So to me, the way you frame that almost feels like it's my personal responsibility to recognize my own goodness, because even just by doing that, you create the opportunity to believe that about other people.
But that ripple in of itself when we start behaving differently because we start seeing ourselves differently, the impact in our immediate surroundings is different because we're fundamentally different. And I think sometimes, again, with social media and all of these things, we feel like society is this big, giant thing that we have no impact on because it's this huge conceptual nebulous thing comprised of all these individuals.
But we forget that we have so much power and potency just by Just by bringing our basic goodness to the fore and believing that in ourselves every day, and just by being a better person to the people directly around [00:38:00] us. And my hope would be that then other people are... feel connected or, or inspired by that, you know, interaction, or grateful even for that interaction, and then they're able to then carry that gratitude in their heart for their next interaction, those sorts of things.
And I forget some- I think we forget sometimes, certainly I do, that basic goodness can be as simple as that, and it's our own almost personal responsibility, um, in that way to change our societies by just showing up in that way.
Speaker 3: And again, it comes down, uh, I mean, you two know these things so well, which is again why it's so, so thrilling to be here.
Even a conversation like this, it's like, well, we're showing up authentically for this period of time, very openheartedly, being very honest and, you know, just really trying to talk about what matters. And then we say, well, hopefully that does have an impact in a really positive way. Hopefully someone out there is feeling supported by this.
And it's that constantly, you know? It's that, it's, it's obvious here, but it's also, like, w- again, after this I take my toddler to [00:39:00] gymnastics. Same thing, you know, with all the screaming kids and all of the parents. And it's like, it's, it feels less obvious to me that I am now part of gymnastics society, but it's there, and how I show up effing matters.
Speaker: I think also we often sort of conflate the notion of a nation state and society. It's like Australian society, you know, US society, or Iraqi, or it is, whatever it is. And I think what you're reminding me, LaDora, is that society is community, and society is humans interacting in a particular way. And I think when we have that reframe, it also again really empowers us to understand that our behavior and how we show up to ourselves, how we start to embrace our own basic goodness, see that in others, see that in our societies that we participate in, can really shift things.
And I think to, uh, underscore what Lex just mentioned as well, that there's this, what you both just mentioned, this ripple effect that takes place that really we may not always be aware of it, but I think we can very much trust that it's occurring, um, and [00:40:00] allow that to sort of guide sometimes our behavior to, to really be courageous in those moments.
Speaker 3: It is. I- I think most of us don't act in ways that we- Think are heroic. Mm-hmm. But there's these simple moments when if we're actually fully present to a situation, we're getting off the train, and there's someone struggling to get a stroller up the stairs, and we just say, "Oh, here, let me help you with that."
And that person's like, "Oh, my goodness. Thank goodness that someone actually helped." Yeah. And it doesn't... It's two min- not even, um, two minutes for us. It's just instant. And that willingness to go beyond our hesitation and to show up- Mm-hmm ... for one another is the thing that's actually going to revolutionize society.
Uh, Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Zen master, when asked about, you know, who, who will be the next Buddha? He said, "The next Buddha's gonna be community." And that has r- you know, particularly since he [00:41:00] passed, and particularly w- given our situation here in the United States, it has resonated in the back of my mind that there's not someone out there that I just say, "They're gonna come save us."
It's community that saves us. It's us showing up for one another. And I think at the end of our lives, we want to say, "Oh, I did what I could to show up for everyone. I, I was here. I was present for my life." We don't want to have that sort of regret of I, I just l- head down kept myself entertained with Netflix and work.
We want to be present for our lives. We want to be of benefit to others. I think that is inherent to who we are, and there's tools here, and you are good, you are enough, and, and in general that help us show up for one another in a more positive way.
Speaker 2: Lodro, such a powerful message. And I wonder if we might finish our conversation here, but if you could leave our community of listeners with perhaps one of these tools, if they're inspired by this idea of developing their own feelings of goodness, of enoughness, [00:42:00] where might they start?
Speaker 3: Yeah. I, I do think the nice thing about meditation is that anyone can do it anywhere. And we talked, I think, last time about, like, all of the people who were like, "I could never meditate." Yeah. So y'all can go back to, you know, the previous iteration of all this. But I, I do think that, you know, particularly again, as someone who now as a kid, I, I'm like, "Okay, if I can get in, in some time, everyone can get in time."
Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, not, not to denigrate anyone who has, like, you know, 12 kids and, you know, three full-time jobs and all. Like, but I still believe that we can all find a little bit of time to feel grounded and to feel at home in our bodies, which is essentially what meditation is. So even doing a few minutes of mindfulness meditation every day can really be life-changing for anyone.
And again, a few minutes considering how we spend our time. We can carve it out, put it on the calendar if you have to. But something, even if 10, 10 minutes a day right when you wake up or, again, as someone who gets woken up by a [00:43:00] child, uh, every day, you know, right after the morning coffee or right, you know, in between meeting, that there's always sort of find the time to be at home in our bodies, to be at home with our heart.
I don't mean to sound woo-woo about those things, but that is what basic goodness is, is us coming back to who we are and realizing that we are not the confusion, we are not the stories that are swirling through our head that day. We are not our anxiety. We are basically good. So I think meditation's the number one with a bullet, and if people are interested in You Are Good, You Are Enough and want more on techniques for how to connect to that sense of goodness, of course, it's now gonna be out in the world, so I'm, I'm very happy that it's there.
Speaker: We're so excited that, that everyone gets to read your incredible new book, Lodro, and it's such a great reminder, I think, that we have the tools right now to be able to start that path to connect with our basic goodness. I ha- was con- kept thinking of the phrase oh my goodness, and now I think I'm gonna use oh my basic goodness as a little reminder to myself during the day of my basic goodness.
So thank [00:44:00] you for being with us today on Live and Work More Human, and thank you so much for your incredible book and your incredible work.
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you, and I, I love that. Yeah. Oh my basically goodness. Doesn't roll off the tongue as well. We'll work on it. We'll workshop it.
Speaker: Let's g- yeah, I love it. Thanks again for being with us, Lodro.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Thanks so much for being with us at Live and Work More Human. You can learn more in our show notes or visit liveandworkmorehuman.com. We'll see you next time.
