Allied: How To Lead People Who Are Different From You with Stephanie Chung
Stephanie Chung - First African-American president of a private aviation company, Author
We’re human first, leader second. We all are. The We Are Stephanie Chung is the author of Ally Leadership: How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You and the first African-American president of a private aviation company. With 30+ years driving business growth, she’s a sought-after speaker known for her practical, inspiring take on leading diverse teams. Beyond the stage, Stephanie shapes impact as a board member for the Make-A-Wish Foundation and the National Business Aviation Association. Her driving belief? Strong human connections create lasting change — and she’s dedicated to helping us lead better, together.
More often than not, the people we lead aren’t like us. Whether by gender, race, culture, or generation, the workplace is a melting pot of difference and leading people who aren’t like you is critical to success.
So how do we do it? Enter Ally Leadership. A step away from performative and outdated leadership, and a stem into truly understanding, and getting the most from the brilliant human you lead.
In today’s conversation we speak to Stephanie Chung, a pioneering woman of color in the aviation sector. As an aviation trailblazer, Stephanie has 35 years of aviation experience, from a baggage handler to being the first African-American private aviation company president. And she’s now a #1 International Best Selling author with her new book, and the topic of our conversion today: Ally Leadership, How To Lead People Who Are Not Like You.
This conversation is practical, insightful and jam-packed with Stephanie’s personal career wisdom–from highlights to trials and tribulations.
Now more than ever the world needs leaders who’re ready to listen-up and learn, leaders like you.
Learn more about Stephanie Chung here:
TikTok: @thestephaniechung
Instagram: @thestephaniechung
Linkedin: thestephaniechung
YouTube: @Coachstephaniechung
Facebook: TheStephanieChung
Episode Transcript:
Chapters
00:40 Meet Stephanie Chung: Aviation Trailblazer
04:51 The Birth of Ally Leadership
07:41 Defining Ally Leadership
14:48 Understanding Privilege in Leadership
24:26 Empowering Leaders to Earn Respect
25:12 Earning the Right to be Called an Ally
26:22 The EARN Acronym Explained
28:05 Practical Examples of Assuring Alignment
33:01 The ROI of Diverse Teams
34:45 The Challenges and Benefits of Leading Diverse Teams
37:11 The Importance of Personal Branding for Leaders
39:37 The Role of Courage in Leadership
44:59 Final Thoughts on Ally Leadership
Alexis Zahner: [00:00:00] More often than not, the people we lead aren't like us. Whether by gender, race, culture, or generation, the workplace is a melting pot of difference and leading People who are like you is critical to success. So how do we do it? Enter ally leadership, a step away from performative and outdated leadership, and a step into truly understanding and getting the most from the brilliant human beings that you lead.
I am Alexis Zana, and welcome to We Are Human Leaders in today's conversation, myself and co-host Sally Clark are speaking with Stephanie Chung, a pioneering woman of color in the aviation sector as an aviation trailblazer. Stephanie has 35 years of [00:01:00] experience in aviation from a baggage handler to being the first African American private aviation company president.
She's now a number one bestselling author of her new book and the topic of our conversation today, ally Leadership, how to Lead People who Are not like you. This conversation is practical, insightful, and jam packed with Stephanie's personal career wisdom from highlights to trials and tribulations. Now more than ever, the world needs leaders who are ready to listen up and learn leaders just like you.
Thanks for joining us for this conversation on Ally leadership. Now let's dive in.
Sally Clarke: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. Stephanie, it's such a pleasure to have you with us today, and we'd love to start by getting to know you a little bit better and understanding the journey that's brought you to the incredible work that you're doing today.[00:02:00]
Stephanie Chung: Oh, well thank you. Thank you. First of all, it's really nice to be here and uh, I'm looking forward to this particular interview, so thank you for having me. So, in regards to how I got here, you know, I always like to give credit what credit is due because I started off as a military kid. My dad was a master sergeant in the US Air Force, and so that meant I literally lived on active Air Force bases my whole life.
And so I was that kid growing up that moved every two years of my life. And that has a lot to do with, you know, how I see the world. So I'll kind of jump over to that in just a second. But how I started, I started off in aviation. I knew that I wanted to be in aviation, uh, literally as a little girl. Like I knew that's exactly what I wanted to do, just because I grew up around planes, hearing them take off land all the time, being on an active Air Force base.
So I started out in aviation, worked for the airlines, moved into sales really quickly, and then got recruited from the airlines into private aviation, whereas where I've spent a majority of my career, [00:03:00] and the reason why I bring that up is because private aviation is a very aspirational industry, right?
People either want to aspire to fly on a private jet, or they aspire to be able to have enough money to buy a private jet, right? So it's very aspirational. So I've been in the industry a long time. I've loved the industry. The industry has loved me back. But one of the things I always say about the private aviation industry is that we suffer from PMS.
We are pale, male, and stale. Okay? And so what that really means for me is I grew up in an industry where no one, and I do mean no one looked like me while I was going through the ranks in the private aviation sector. And so what that did is it gave me an interesting perspective because the teams that I led, usually until I could get in and start to, you know, uh, change 'em up a little bit and diversify them a bit, teams that I always inherited were typically all white men.
And so what that was was, you know, now all of a sudden I'm leading people who are not like [00:04:00] me. We don't have the same lived experiences. We're different gender, different race, et cetera. And so why I wrote the book, ally Leadership, how to Lead People Who Are Not Like You. I wrote it for several different reasons, but one of the main reasons was because as I was coming up through the ranks in my own profession, I was working with people who were not like me, and yet I was still able to hit the highest level.
But you know, this is a book, it's kind of like a love letter as to how I did it, in hopes that it will help other leaders be able to do it as well, but do it faster and more efficiently than I did.
Sally Clarke: Right? So that's how we got here. Amazing. Stephanie, thank you so much for sharing your journey and it, it sounds like it.
You know, I really love that you've brought this lived experience that you've had of being able to work out how to lead people who are, who are not like you, and sort of share these beautiful frameworks and we'll delve deeper into the book shortly. I'm curious, what was it, what moment did you decide to write the book or did you realize that what your, you'd experienced was this unique perspective and was gonna be really [00:05:00] useful for other leaders in a similar position?
Stephanie Chung: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's a great question in regards to, to why I decided to write the book. So I am a professional speaker, as I mentioned, you know, before we went live. And so my speakers bureau had actually planted the seed first to me. They're like, listen, when you get off stage, people are asking does she have a book?
And you know, so you need to write a book or at least be thinking about writing a book. And at the time I was speaking professionally, but I was also still a working executive in the C-suite, publicly held company. And so writing a book was just the furthest thing from my mind because I just didn't have the bandwidth to take on a task like writing a book.
But then, you know, situations changed. My schedule started to free up a little bit more, and then I really, really fought long and hard about. I think it's a really good point. I should have a book out there, but what is it that I feel qualified and passionate enough to write about? Because anybody who's ever written a book will tell you it's probably the hardest thing they've ever done, and it's quite the investment as far as your time and energy and [00:06:00] focus and things of that nature.
So I went away and I did something that I'd never done before. Ladies, I went away for five days and I went completely off the grid. So going away wasn't a big deal, but going away by myself was a big deal and going away by myself off the grid. No phones, no internet, no nothing. That was a huge deal for me because I really wanted to just spend time with me and to really do some.
Inner thinking and just kind of quiet the noise, if you will. So I could truly hear, I'm a woman of faith, so I really wanted to hear like, God, if I write this book, what do you want me to write about? What is it that you feel like people need? Right? And um, I will tell you after five days, I was quite clear on what it was that I felt like I was supposed to write.
And so that's where the book Ally leadership, how to lead people who are not like you was really birthed, was just my time away by myself. And just the stillness of really thinking back on my life, my experience, and [00:07:00] figuring out where I could add some value to the world today. And so, super proud of the book.
I, uh, certainly when I did this, you know, a year and a half ago, I didn't know the world we'd be living in today. Mm-hmm. Right. So I think the book is actually incredibly timely for just what's going on in the world these days.
Alexis Zahner: We couldn't agree more, Stephanie, and thank you so much for sharing that journey of that the solitude and how that brought you that clarity around the book.
And one of my favorite things about the book is actually reading a lot about your lived experience. I felt like there were moments in the book where I was really there with you experiencing that pain and some of the intersectional identity elements that you spoke about was really powerful. So we're really glad you did it that way.
And I'd love to begin with the title of the book, Stephanie Ally, leadership. Can you help us understand a definition around what Ally leadership is and how this differs from other modalities of leadership that we might have already heard of?
Stephanie Chung: Yeah. Thank you for the question. Thank you. And thank you for telling me that you like the book.
I appreciate that. [00:08:00] So, ally, you know it's an acronym and it stands for Ask, listen. Learn. You take action. Now, I could have called the book Allyship. I didn't do that on purpose because I really don't want this book to be kind of categorized or locked into just a DEI type of philosophy, right? Because the book is really written for any leader in any country, literally for anyone and everyone that's leading people.
And the way that I believe you're successful as a leader is to be an ally to your people and an ally to their win, right? And only way that you're gonna be able to be a good ally to them is if you ask, listen, learn, and then you take action. And so that's the reason why it's called Ally leadership is because Ally is the acronym.
Now, in regards to your second question, you know, what makes the book different? I believe it's because, you know, if you wanna be a really good leader, especially what I call an ally leader, so this is the leader for the 21st century, right? Today's leader has to know how to lead today's modern [00:09:00] workforce.
Which is interesting all within itself. So really when I think of Ally, it's because it's more, it's less technical and more tactical. So what I mean by that is technical. You know, let's just use an a simple example. Let's say somebody is always late on your team. Well, a technical response would be, you know what, Alexis is always late.
I'm gonna write her up. I'll know what's going on with her. Right? Yeah. A tactical response would be, well, you know what, actually Alexis is always late. I don't know what's going on with her. I don't know why that is. But instead of me writing her up, let me go ahead, have a conversation. Let me ask, let me listen.
Let me learn and see if there's some things that we can do, how I can take action to actually help her and support her, because clearly something's going on. Mm, I just don't know what it is. So it's less technical. I think there's enough books out there technically telling you what to do. It's more tactical.
That's what I believe. Today's leader is really gonna have an advantage if they focus there because today's modern workforce, listen, there's six generations [00:10:00] working right now. Yeah. Every generation has a different expectation, want, need, desire, perspective, and they're demanding a certain level of leadership.
And so this is not easy to lead in today's day and world. Right? And you can't just call yourself a leader. I mean this, you gotta put some skin in the game these days, right? And so when I think of the book Ally Leadership, yes, there's the technical versus the tactical, but then also what I appreciate about today's modern workforce is that they're demanding more from their leaders.
Yeah. And that means leaders are going to have to level up. So you're gonna need to lead all God's Trojan, every race, every creed, every gender. That's the job. I
Sally Clarke: think that's such an important point. Stephanie and I particularly think, you know, we hear a lot from leaders these days who are really looking for that tactical approach.
How can I do this? I know I've got the why, but I really need that kind of help in connecting with people. And I also love how Ally leadership is. What I'm hearing, this really real focus on deep communication and actually hearing, so stepping away from sort of [00:11:00] assumptions or sort of an automatic response that we might have to certain feedback that we're getting from our team and actually double clicking and checking what's going on for them and taking action accordingly.
And I think that's such an empowering framework for leaders. I think sort of in contrast, I'd love to understand, you know, what do you think leaders. Most get wrong when they're trying to really be an ally in this way and to lead these multiple generations at once.
Stephanie Chung: Yeah, that's such a good question. And we, we could go deep and wide on this one because, so first what I'll do is let me kind of reset just for our audience to know what is going on in the workplace, right?
Uh, they're probably living it, but they may be living different versions of it. And then I'll answer your real question, which is, you know, what are some things that they can do? So we've got the six generations working. So that's situation number one. That's a challenge all within itself because we know boomers don't think the same way.
Let's say it's Gen Z or the Zoomers, right? Then we have women as the [00:12:00] majority of the population. So we as women think differently. We communicate differently and we see things differently. So that's has a different dynamic in the workforce. Then you take all the ethnic groups and demographics, right? So at least here in the United States, not sure you know for Australia, but.
The each of the dip, the ethnic groups are growing and the non-ethnic group is shrinking, right? So that changes the dynamics in the workplace. Then you have people with different physical abilities or NeuroD diversities or LGBTQ plus community. And so we just have a whole lot of differences in the workplace.
And that means we as leaders have our hands full because we're trying to lead people who are not like each other. They're not like us, and you know, we're trying to manage this whole thing and still help people win. Right? So that's, I guess the real focus is kind of how I wanna set this whole thing up in regards to.
What mistakes can leaders make? The biggest mistake that they can make is to show up and talk about how they see [00:13:00] things, right? And that is, I always tell leaders, don't overcomplicate this because the minute you go in thinking, well, this is how I, and listen to be a really good ally, you have to realize that you have a different lived experience than the other person.
So the worst thing you can do is to come in and start telling, rattling off to people how you see stuff. Mm-hmm. Nobody cares because your lived experience is different than theirs. That's why it's so important that you follow the acronym of Ask, listen, and Learn, and then you take action. Because if you show up as the leader and you want to kind of like, this is how I see everything.
Well, if you don't have their same, let's say culturally you're different, or ethnically you're different, or you have this different genders or age or whatever, you know, there's a gazillion differences out there. If you come in voicing your point of view from the get go. You're gonna shut people down. And even worse, you are not going to listen and learn and have a different experience.
Right. And so [00:14:00] that's the biggest mistake that leaders can do. Let's do less talking and let's do more asking and listening, because again, going back to my original comment, that's what today's modern workforce is demanding. Hmm. They're all different. And so instead of us shying away from those differences or trying to make everybody kind of conform to how we like to do things or see things, the best thing that a leader, a true leader can do in today's day and age is literally come to the table with, I don't have all the answers.
I know one way to do it, but it's one way to do it. It's not the only way to do it, and so therefore, I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna listen. I'm gonna learn, and then I'm gonna take action from there. Once I have understanding. Of how we have our differences and how those differences can be a plus.
Alexis Zahner: Hmm. Stephanie, that reminds me of one of the examples in your book when we were looking at the chapter around privilege of a gentleman you mentioned named Ted.
And I think the quote from the book was something like he had the privilege of [00:15:00] being unaware of his privilege. And I'd love to dive into this a little bit more because I think. What I took from that was that even though often as an ally leader we can have the right intentionality behind what is driving our behavior, and in Ted's case it was around the sort of racial unrest at the time in the US and and through COVID.
And so I think from that example I took that he'd come to that with the right intentionality to check in on his team. However. Just by default of not being aware of his own privilege happened to make the whole conversation more about him and his emotional standing than it was his team. So I'd love to, if we could unpack this idea of privilege a little bit more and can you give us a little guidance around how we can actually have a constructive conversation that acknowledges privilege.
Stephanie Chung: Ah, I love, love, love that question. And thank you. You know, it's funny, when you talked about Ted, it reminded me of the story. It's a story in that particular book. Yeah. And so. And Ted's all of us, right? Like we've [00:16:00] all done this before. And so here's what I would say. First of all, the word privilege is actually a really positive word.
Mm-hmm. And somehow it's become a trigger, a negative trigger for a lot of people. Yeah. So that just baffles my mind because if we just think about when we were little kids, if somebody used the word privilege, we'd be like super positive about it. Right? And now it's just a trigger warning for all kind of different reasons, and it doesn't need to be.
So the way that I think about trip privilege is a lot of times people get triggered because they're not listening and they're not learning, and they see it as a negative First step is every leader has to realize that every single person on the planet has some type of privilege, period. So let's diffuse the word, right?
Everybody has a privilege. And so what I talk about in the book is privilege is just an unearned advantage that you've been given. That's it. So I'll give you an example just so that we can dejure anyone, right? As a person who doesn't have a [00:17:00] physical disability, I have a privilege of whenever I have a meeting or a lunch meeting or a dinner meeting, I never have to think about is that particular building have, you know, handicap or disabled abilities?
Like I don't have to think about it. I don't have to think, are there stairs or is there an elevator or is there a ramp? I don't have to think about it because I don't have a physical disability, right? So that's a privilege that I have. Something as simple as I'm right-handed. So every car on the planet is made for a right handed person, so I don't have to think about.
Driving a stick shift as a left-handed person. It's just a privilege I have. So privilege doesn't have to be this big, grandiose thing if you realize that every single person has a form of privilege. Mm. Right? And so with that in mind, when I think for leaders, leaders, you do have more privilege than your workers probably.
And so how [00:18:00] do we use that privilege for good? So, as you know, in the book I talk about several different types of privileges. There's Yes. We all talk about maybe, you know, there's social status privilege, there's male privilege, there's proximity, privilege, there's, I just mentioned, you know, if you don't have a disability, there's a privilege there.
Yeah. There's a gazillion different privileges. Yeah. But how you can use a privilege just for the sake of this conversation as, let's take one simple as male privilege. Right. Men have an advantage in most countries. Because the rules and the hierarchy and the ways that things have been established were established, you know, years ago or hundreds of years ago, depending on the country.
But they were still established primarily for men. That's the patriarch. And the systems that we're all still working under, some of those are being shipped away, but nevertheless, the systems are still there. And so as a male, one way that you can use your privilege, let's say, to help females in the workplace is if you're in a meeting.
There's a woman probably, she's [00:19:00] probably the only one, or maybe there's one, if you're lucky. There may be two of them right in this meeting. But if you see the woman's trying to convey an idea or a thought process or something like that, and other people are, you know, cutting her off or not letting her speak, et cetera.
You can use your male privilege in that situation. Well, to say something like, you know what, um, Hank, I know that you have something to say, but I believe actually Alexis was in the middle of a sentence, so I'd love to allow her to be able to finish her thought.
Yeah.
Stephanie Chung: That's the way that you can use your privilege in an everyday scenario, right.
Or let's say if you are a person and you grew up, let's say you have a social privilege, right? You just, you know, you grew up in, in more of a wealthy type of family, and yet maybe you have some of your team members who don't have that same privilege and yet they've gotta go to a meeting with you where there's gonna be a gazillion pieces of fork wear on the dinner table and all different types of cuts and plates and so on and so forth.
You could use your privilege in the [00:20:00] scenario of teaching them, Hey, you're gonna walk in. There's a whole lot. Don't let that intimidate you. Here's how you wanna think about it. Think of BMW Bread, meal, water, right? Yeah. And so this is how you wanna use your silverware or use your glassware, whatever. Those are simple examples that you can use when you think of the privilege that you have that maybe some of your teammates or colleagues or people you report into, maybe they don't have those same privileges.
And that's just a simple way that you can use your privilege for good. Mm-hmm.
Alexis Zahner: I think that's such a helpful way of describing it. Stephanie, thank you. And. One thing that I really felt as a result of your book is an invitation to explore this a little more versus feeling like, because you mentioned it was unearned.
However, we still can have worked really hard in our career to have the achievements we've had and and have the success we've had. It's not a either or. We can be. Privileged and have worked really hard in our career and be deserving of our success. And to me, that felt like much more of an invitation to engage [00:21:00] in this conversation than I'd experienced previously.
So thank you so much for framing it in that way.
Stephanie Chung: Thank you. Thank you for saying that. You know what's funny, Alexis? I actually heard that comment from some others as well, especially men, you know, they're like, mm-hmm. You should hear the word privilege, and I get really triggered. But the way that you laid it out, I wasn't triggered at all.
It was like, oh, this is a new way to think about it. So. Thank you for saying that. That was my intention
Sally Clarke: and it's so beautiful. I think as well, Stephanie, that you're by through acknowledging privilege rather than tiptoeing around it or ignoring it, because we're afraid of opening that conversation, it actually empowers us to use it in this helpful way that you've described, and I think it's such an important step that we can all take to acknowledge that we're perhaps.
Nervous about it, but actually when we acknowledge it, we can actually translate it into something that act, you know, sort of breaks down barriers and indeed can sort of help us to translate that privilege into, you know, better outcomes for others as well. Particularly people that we lead.
Stephanie Chung: Exactly. Well, thank you for saying that too, Sally, because when I wrote the book, one of the reasons I wrote the book [00:22:00] besides the, the obvious of the Speakers bureau is I also felt like there was a lot of books out there, but they were only talking to one group.
So the books were usually to men, white men specifically saying, here's how you lead women or people of color. And I felt like the conversation needed to go deeper and wider. And so yes, that's a conversation that should be had for sure, just because of, usually for the most part, men are still controlling most of the leadership positions in corporate America.
But as the world continues to change, the conversation needs to go deeper and wider. You know, and as, as you saw when you read the book, I started the book so that I could diffuse everybody. I started the book with my own example of walking into this newly inherited team that I had, and they were all white met, right?
So nobody looked like me in that team. So, you know, I wanted everybody. To read this book and to realize this is not a book to beat anybody up. This is not a book to make anybody feel bad about where they are in life. That doesn't serve anyone. The book is really designed for every leader. It's like [00:23:00] the whole world's changing.
We have to change with it, and we either can choose to change and continue to be great leaders, or we can choose to just kind of stand our ground and hope that, you know, everybody starts to acquiesce to how we see the world. And that's work, right. Replaceable because the world's just moving too fast for that kind of old school thinking, if you will.
So when I wrote the book, I wanted everyone to feel encouraged and uplifted and feel empowered like, I can do this. Versus like, oh, they're gonna beat me over the head 'cause I have money. Or I'm a guy, or I'm, you know, I'm gonna want me. Like, there's just all that stuff. I just didn't want that type of book.
I don't think it serves any, it doesn't make anybody feel good to feel bad, right? So it's like, let's use this book to actually empower people. Because I do believe that most people actually want to be a really good leader, I believe. Let me be really specific. I also believe that most white men actually wanna do a good job.
They wanna feel like they're an ally. They may not be clear on how exactly to do it. So therefore, this book is just a [00:24:00] tool to help any leader who really wants to be better and do better. Here's a tool
Sally Clarke: to help you and it absolutely is that, Stephanie. It's such a powerful framing of the conversation, and I think particularly as you say at this juncture in our, in our history and also where we are sort of in the world of work, I think it's such an important book for people to be reading, and again, like as you said, sort of this tactical approach that we can take to really behaving in a way that shifts the dial.
And I'd love to double click on one of the concepts that you delve into in the book as well. 'cause it's something that we hear, I think, a lot, uh, lacking in the world of work at the moment. And that's a sense of respect. And you know, I think there's a lot of people out there who are feeling disconnected, perhaps some level of distrust, but at some level they feel disrespected by their leaders.
And respect is this kind of nebulous concept that I think, you know, for leaders can kind of feel like, well. How do I make people feel respected? And you just do such a beautiful job. In the book of sort of unpacking that, can you share with us how people leaders can earn EARN [00:25:00] respect and the impact that that can have for the team and for their leadership?
Oh, absolutely.
Stephanie Chung: Thank you. That's a rich, steep question. And so we talked about Ally being an acronym of Ask Listen. Learn you take action. Is actually an acronym as well that I talk about in the book, that you have to earn the right to be called an ally. And the reason why that's important is because I was finding a lot of people were self annoying themselves, right?
Like, Hey, I'm an ally. It's like, okay, right. You know? And what would happen is whenever people tell me that, usually it's been, hey stuff, you know, love the book. I've been married to the same woman. I'm a girl dad, like I'm an ally, right? I'm an ally to women, and I will go fantastic. Tell me what you've done this week to show your allyship.
Mm-hmm. And then, ladies, it's crickets, right? Because they're standing there looking at me with, you know, their mouth down on the floor, and they have nothing to say. The reason why I bring that up is because being an ally is not [00:26:00] something that you can anoint yourself with. Others can call you an ally.
Like, I can't say, oh, I'm, you know, I'm a nice person. Based on what, right? Who says, I'm a nice person? You two can say, you know what? I met Stephanie. I spent some time with her, and she's a really nice person. That's how Ally in allyship works as well. You can't self anoint yourself, so you have to earn the right to be called an ally.
An EARN is an acronym, it stands for the E is you have to establish an environment As the leader, you have to establish an environment where people feel seen, appreciated, and psychologically safe. The A is that you have to assure alignment, right? And so meaning the left hand has to know what the right hand's doing.
The average employee, I don't care what country they're from or what industry they're in. Most employees really just have some really basic questions. What is it that we do as an organization and how does what I do impact what we do as a company? That's it. If you can answer those two questions for them, it's amazing how [00:27:00] much more they're like, okay, they feel like they've got a higher cause and whatnot.
And so you have to assure alignment. The left hand has to know what the right hand's doing within the organization. Then the R stands for Rally the Troops, right? If you get a bunch of people who feel safe enough to be able to speak and share what they're thinking on a project, on a process, you know, whatever, and they are in alignment.
So operations knows what sales does, which knows what finance does, which knows what HR does, right? Everybody's in alignment. When you rally those troops, they become unstoppable because they know what they're doing, why they're doing it, how they're doing it, right? They know all the basic answers to the question.
And then N stands for Navigate the neuros. I come from aviation, so. In aviation, we always have to be in navigation mode, right? A pilot doesn't get on a plane having no clue where he is going, why he is when he is going, when he is getting there. It doesn't work out way. You have to understand some of the basics.
Where are we going? How are we getting there? Because that's gonna determine how much fuel do I need, when do I need to take off? [00:28:00] What's the wind looking like? It determines everything. So navigating the narrows is what the N stands for. So on a practical term, I'll give you an example of let's use the A right to assure alignment.
One of the ways that when I was leading companies, one of the ways that I would assure alignment is to make sure that the left hand knew what the right hand was doing is I would incorporate walk a miles into the organization. And so a walk a mile is every single person in the organization. I even had my board doing this, right?
Like everybody had to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes in that company. And so all that meant was that you would spend maybe an hour observing what it is that somebody from a different department actually does. So it's important. So I'll use aviation again. When my pilots would come in town for their recurrent training, I would also make them come to headquarters and do a walk a mile.
So that may mean that they go and sit down and, you know, put some headphones on and listen to maybe customer service, booking a trip. Now all of a sudden the [00:29:00] pilot is now got a bigger viewpoint as to what does it take for this trip to actually take off. He or she just gets in the plane and flies, right?
We give them, here's the information. They go ahead from there, but it's really key and important for them to know all this stuff that happens up until that point, because now they won't be so quick to go, well, you know, the customer service didn't do this. 'cause now you may understand, well the reason they didn't do this is 'cause they were waiting for this, this, this, this, and this.
And so instead of pointing fingers, now you've got a little bit more heart to go, okay, well you know what, one of the things that I could do to make their job easier is this right? And so it's just, it's something that sounds so simple, but when you get an organization that is aligned, or every single department is their brother's keeper and they all know why they exist and more importantly, why the company exists.
Now all of a sudden you have a company that is set up to win. And so that starts though from the top down. This is not a bottom up kind of thing. It literally stops, starts from the top down. The leaders have to [00:30:00] earn the right to be called an ally. And an ally isn't just a people, sometimes you're an ally to a department, right?
So there's departmental allies as well. So again, you, as you guys know, I go deep and wide with this in the book. Because at the end of the day, I'm just trying to help leaders set up to win, right? So them personally winning the, them being a leader, so they know how to have a winnable team, but also so that their companies win as well.
Because at the end of the day, we serve several customers. We serve the customers who buy our product, we serve our customers who are employees, and we serve our stockholders or shareholders, you know, depending on if you're privately or publicly held. So we have a lot of customers that we have to serve, but it all starts with.
The right to be called an ally to everyone, every department, every country, or 'cause if you're a global company. So allyship is not just in the basic sense. It really is a very big umbrella, if you will, and you just wanna know how to do it effectively.
Alexis Zahner: Hmm. Stephanie, I just wanna go back to your initial point [00:31:00] here around the dad.
The girl dads suggesting that he's a leader, because there was a section in your book where I felt damn sit down because I, I very much felt. Like I'd had his experience that I, in my heart, in my soul, knew myself to be an ally. But I didn't realize up until that point that allyship isn't, I. Passive, it actually needs to be an active process to drive change and to connect with people.
So I felt, again, the tactical part of your book was really helpful for me 'cause it illuminated a way that I could actually put what I was feeling and the intentionality that I knew was there into practice. So that for me was 0.1. And again, another invitation in your book to actually take action. And another thing that I love about your book, when you speak about ally leadership is.
Whilst there are elements of this really rooted in DEI, for me, it goes so much further beyond that into understanding a lot of the intersectionality that people have in terms of their DEI, their ethnicity, their race, their religion, but also [00:32:00] their job function. Actually just a basic understanding of what people do for a living and how we can actually support them to bring out the best of them in their work as well.
So it's a very. Practical lens to your book as well, which I really appreciated.
Stephanie Chung: Oh, thank you. That's the best compliment you could give. Answer. Oh, I'm the queen of simplicity, right? Oh, I
Alexis Zahner: love, I know. I, I loved it. I loved it. And as someone who's led teams in the past, that sometimes is an element that you forget when you're a leader, you forget perhaps what it's like to be at maybe the grassroots or the, or the sales floor or the organization.
Maybe it's been a long time since you've been there, or perhaps you've come into the organization never having walked that path. So. I think it's a really helpful lens, understanding what it is that people do on a very functional level every day. It's, it's brilliant and we'd love to know a little bit more, Stephanie around a, a lot of leaders we're tasked with looking at the bottom line.
So what is some of the ROI that we can expect when we become an ally leader? How, what are the outcomes? [00:33:00]
Stephanie Chung: Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting, and actually it's because I thought more, and I think about this all the time. So there's a lot of conversation about the ROI in regards to diverse teams, right? And so I'm gonna rattle off a couple of them and just so that I don't mess them up, I'm gonna actually read them.
Then I'm gonna answer your question in regards to as well, you know, what's the ROI for you personally becoming an ally leader, right? So first, let's start with the company. Just having a diverse team, and I'm not gonna, I could go on and on on, I'm just gonna bring up like three or four different points.
Companies are 33% more likely to be profitable if they're diverse. That's from a McKinsey study. Companies with high diversity are 19% higher. They have 19% higher innovation revenue. That's from a Harvard Business Review study. Diverse teams are 25% more likely to outperform less diverse teams in other McKinsey study.
In organizations with diverse leadership are 70% likelier to capture new markets. Harvard [00:34:00] Business Review, I could literally go on and on, on of just what the stats are in regards to diverse teams. And the reason why I bring that up is because. There's no need to have a discussion any longer about the benefits of diverse teams.
The, the research is there. Everybody can Google it. The stats are really clear. Yeah. And so as you, as a business leader, our job is to make sure that we run profitable businesses, right? That's the job that people hire us for. Even if you work at a nonprofit, the nonprofit really has to be profitable or she sort no purpose, right?
So it's like every company has to turn a. Now with that in mind, that's the advantage of having diverse teams. It's just better for business period. Now, on the flip side, what does it mean to you or for you to be a leader who can lead people who are not like you? I always go back to it increases your brand's marketability.
If you're a leader that can lead a diverse [00:35:00] team, because what we don't talk about a lot, and I'm gonna bring it up in just a second, what we don't talk about, we talk about the advantages for having a diverse team. We don't talk about the fact that it's actually hard to run and lead a diverse team, right?
Because now of a sudden you have a whole lot of people that don't think the same. They have different upbringings, different backgrounds, different cultural differences, all kind of differences. And though that's good in business. It can be challenging to lead, right? Because nobody's the same and that is their superpower, that nobody's the same.
But that really means that you as a leader have to, you can't be a mediocre leader or like an average leader. Like those days are dead, right? Like you gotta bring your A game to lead today's modern workforce just because they're demanding it, and so is the market. So with that in mind, when you think about leadership.
What it really brings you in my opinion, is when you're an ally leader is that's going to increase your personal brand's marketability. Because now all of a sudden you can lead a [00:36:00] diverse team, which statistically just simply will outperform the other teams that are not diverse. And that means that you can communicate enough that you know how to ask, listen, learn, you take action.
You know how to humble yourself. Not coming in saying, this is how we're gonna do things and this is how I see things. But you're coming in going, you know what, actually I don't know everything. So I would love to have the team help me understand, you know, how are we gonna get to this goal? I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear ideas from the group.
Because we gotta get to the goal. So what are your thoughts? You know, Alexis, what are your thoughts over there? Kelly, Sam Henry. Right. You know, what's everybody's thoughts? That's a different type of leadership. That's a very secure, powerful, impactful leader. That's really how I kind of look at this book is average leaders or mediocre leaders, they're not gonna read the book because they don't read any book.
Right, right. So, but the people who are like, you know what, I'm actually good, but I wanna be great. Or I'm great and I really wanna be elite, right? Because I wanna get to the C-suite, or I wanna be on a board, or I wanna run my own company, or I wanna [00:37:00] just be the person that everybody else wants to come work for because I am all that.
Right? If you're that leader, this is the book for you. And because what it's gonna do is it's going to allow you to remember. You know, you are a brand, a personal brand that works within a brand. Everybody thinks about the brand they work for, but you yourself are your personal brand and every single decision that's gonna be made about your professional growth or professional promotion, if you will, every decision about your promotion, you will not be in the room when that decision's being made, period.
Now what will be in the room? When your brand's being discussed is your brand, you won't be there, but your brand will be there. So what do you want your brand to stand for? Right? And so when I say that it increases the marketability in your brand or of your brand, I. It's because you are a person that people are gonna go, oh, you know what his or her team is like always exceeding goals.
That team's got a great communication thing. They're like, they jive really well as a team. That's the stuff that your bosses are actually looking for. [00:38:00] I come from the C-Suite. I'm on public boards, right? Like I know what we're looking for. We're looking for those leaders that know how to lead today's modern workforce.
Those leaders that know how to get results out of all kind of different people. No one gets everyone, but we're looking for the leader that's solution focused, right? And that is an ally leader. They're not on technique, they're on tactics. They're focused on how do I get the best out of every single person on my team?
Because everybody's got a different gift and talent. Now my job is to make sure I know how to pull it out out of all of this.
Sally Clarke: We love it. We love it. We're so here for it. And you know what you're speaking to, Stephanie just really reminds me of some of the research also that Amy Edmondson and her team have done around diversity alone is amazing, but diversity combined with psychological safety and these other aspects of ally leadership that you've shared with us.
That's when we really see things transform and that's when we see, I think ROI at an individual team and organizational level really take off. So I think it's such an important conversation to be having now. I [00:39:00] feel like we could literally talk with you all day. We would love to understand, I think particularly in the context as we've, you know, talked about that there is, there are, you know, organizations out there at the moment that are starting to dial down or even remove their diversity, equity, and inclusion programs as this.
This shift, and I think for the great leaders and all of the leaders who are listening right now fit in that category, who really do want to step into ally leadership, what would you advise as a starting point for them, particularly in the context of the sort of the environment that we find ourselves in at this juncture?
Stephanie Chung: Yeah, that's a great question, right, and so I'm gonna answer it two different ways. One is, leadership requires courage. I talk about that a little bit in the book, right? There's bravery. There's courage. You know, when you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, it baffles my mind how much this conversation is happening around the world.
But I always say it's a head and heart issue. So it's a head issue, which is why I am quick to name out [00:40:00] stats of what diverse teams actually produce, because that's a head issue, but it's also a heart issue, right? And so most normal functioning human beings. Want everybody to win. They don't just want themselves to win.
They want everybody to win. And so when you think about DEI in all of its score these days, leaders are gonna have to make a decision what side of the fence you're on. And they're gonna have to make a decision of what they want their legacy to be. And when they, people talk about having worked for, you know, let's say Stephanie Chung, I want them to be able to say certain things.
And that's when I create that legacy now, not years from now, like every day, every moment, every conversation, every way that I carry myself, that's when the legacy is being created. And that's why it's important that you know what your personal brand stands for. And so what I would say to leaders who are actually on board with, you know, they see the value of everybody being at [00:41:00] the table 'cause with the way that people think or differently.
And that can be a superpower versus a disadvantage. Then what it's gonna require is for you to take action. That's where the courageous or the brave parts comes in, right? Because it's easy. And that's why I call people out. When they say they're an ally, it's easy to say it, but if you take action, the truth is you don't have to say it.
I can see it for myself, right? You have to tell me about it and I can see it. And so the same is true for leaders. DEI is something that the companies that are pulling away from it, we're never really in, in the first place. Let's just be honest. Companies have been in long before, let's. They're not going away.
They've always been in it. This is kind of part of their DNA. They see the value in their standing firm when firing darts come at them. You know, I love it when you see them on TV and they're like, well, we believe in DEI. We're gonna continue believing in DEI. And this is the reason why I love when leaders have bad kind of courage.
And so some leaders are still growing into that type of [00:42:00] courage. But now is your time that you're going to have to make that decision. What type of leader will you be? And so if you're a leader who's leading a department. You've got the goods. I mean, you got there somehow, right? And so now is your time to step into that moment.
How will people describe your leadership? Was everybody work welcomed there? Did everybody grow under your leadership? Were you focused on my job to get you to the next level? Regardless of where that is, how that is, that's the job. I mean, how do you want them to describe you? Because that's what you're doing every single day now.
Mm. And so
Stephanie Chung: that's what I would say in regards to the DEI part. You're gonna have to stand for something, and if you truly believe in it, and you wanna make a world a better place for your kids and your grandkids, et cetera, it's gonna require you to take action. It's gonna require you to be uncomfortable in those uncomfortable conversations.
It's gonna require you to be the person in the room that says, Hey, you know what? Actually Alexis was in the middle of something. Can you like hold your thought, Harry for one second. Let her finish her thought. It's gonna [00:43:00] require that of all of us. Yeah. And so I think that leadership, leadership is leadership, right?
It's not, you know, if you want this job of leadership and you want the responsibility of leading other people. Beyond just the paycheck and you know, and the title. If you really are trying to make an impact, this is where it starts. These can be some tough, challenging times for leaders, for a whole slew of reasons, but the leaders who are determined to lead not just in title and position, but truly in action, this is the time that they shot.
Right, because they're like, you know, I see a challenge ahead of me, like, game on, let's go. Right?
Yeah.
Stephanie Chung: Versus like, Ooh, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna say? I think that we need to make sure that this isn't overly complicated. Yeah. And that's why Alexis, when you talked about the book and I was like, that's the best compliment you can give me is because one of the reasons why I also wrote the book is I felt like there was so many books that were just so complex, and it's not that complicated.
Treat people the way that you would want to be treated. Same stuff we learned. The [00:44:00] kindergarten still applies now. Yeah. It's not that complicated. Right? And so you just have to go into it with both a head and heart perspective. And then when you do that, people are gonna, they're gonna see that, you know, I will talk as a person who's diverse.
For your listeners that may not be able to see me, I'm a black woman. So what I would say is anybody that comes from a diverse background. Usually when I say it's a head and heart issue, we can kind of see where your heart is at based on how you talk to us and approach us and you as women, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
And so what I find that most of us would be happy, and I mentioned this in the book, most people would be happy just to have the conversation. If we can tell your heart's in the right place. So if you make a mistake, that's okay. We can tell your intentions were there, right? We're not gonna beat you over the head.
We have to see that your right intentions were there, right? And that's where the differentiator lies. And so it's both a head and heart issue, but don't make it overly complicated. It's not that complicated. Just treat people the way that you'd wanna be treated.
Alexis Zahner: [00:45:00] Stephanie, that's such an important call to action, and what I appreciated both about what you're saying there and about the book is that it translates performative action into something that can actually mean something, and that it reminds us Ally leadership isn't about what we say, but it's actually about how we're felt by the people around us and the impact that we can have.
So it's really translating that intention. Into something more tangible. And I think for me that was just, that was one of the clearest takeaways from your book. Now, Stephanie, this has been such a beautiful conversation and we feel very grateful to sit down and have it with you today. And other than reading your brilliant book as a first starting point for leaders listening, what is one piece of advice that you could give to an inspired leader to start down the path of ally leadership today?
Stephanie Chung: You know what? Get to know somebody that's not like you. They may be on your team, or maybe you're just building your team and that hasn't happened yet. You're building the pipeline so that you do allow it to happen. But [00:46:00] that's the very first step, is someone who's not like you. Invite them for coffee. Go out for coffee and just ask questions.
Ask, listen, learn. And then throughout that conversation, if there's a place that you can help them, by all means you take action. But it just starts with literally setting yourself up to, I'm gonna be a little bit vulnerable, if you will, and I'm gonna go around someone who's not like me. And I'm gonna sit and talk to them with the intention of learning about their life, their experience, their perspective on how they see things, in hopes that it will not just allow me to cultivate a new friendship, but it will allow me to also grow and expand my own thought process.
Because I wanna be a leader for everybody, not just for people who look and think like me.
Sally Clarke: Incredible. Stephanie, thank you you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. You've dropped so many of our favorite concepts as well, like courage, vulnerability, respect, you know, intentionality. There's so much in your book and there's so much in your work, and we're just so delighted to have had this conversation with you.
Thank you for being with us on, we [00:47:00] Are Human Leaders.
Stephanie Chung: Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. So thank you very much for having me. Our pleasure.
Alexis Zahner: We hope you found Stephanie's journey and expert advice, inspirational and motivating her new book, ally Leadership. How to Lead People Who Are Not Like You is full of practical and. Insightful advice that you can put to work in your career today. To learn more about Stephanie Chung and find links to her book, check out our show notes page at www dot.
We are human leaders.com. Thank you for taking the time to listen in and we'll see you next time on. We are Human Leaders.