A personal update from Alexis and Sally
In this short episode with Alexis and Sally, we give you a personal update from us.
The news is, we're going to be taking a short break from Live+Work More Human for the next few months while we're deep in big projects.
Alexis is releasing her debut book Real: Reconnecting to Yourself in a World of Likes and Lies (Wiley) this September, and Sally is deep in burnout consultancy working supporting people and organisations from all over the world.
What this means is that we can't give you, our community, the full time and attention you deserve through our podcast. In the meantime we'll share a few brainsnack episodes from recent conversations, and let you know soon what the next steps look like for us.
Please enjoy some of our previous episodes via your favourite streaming platform, on Youtube or right here: liveandworkmorehuman.com
It's not a goodbye, it's a see you soon!
Links & mentions
Alexis book Real: Reconnecting to Yourself in a World of Likes and Lies can be ordered here.
Join her at one of these dates around Australia on her book tour, tickets here.
Sally’s latest article on Fast Company can be read here.
Live + Work More Human is hosted by Sally Clarke and Alexis Zahner. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at www.liveandworkmorehuman.com
Transcript
Sal (00:09)
Welcome to Live and Work More Human. We have a little bit of a different conversation for you today. I'm Sally Clark and I'm with my co-host Alexis Dana and got some sort of news and not news at the same time. Without further ado, let's chat about it.
Alexis Zahner (00:28)
Yeah,
Alexis Zahner (00:30)
I guess all the news and also yeah, just life updates from both of us. Hey, so we are at a just an interesting and exciting point in our careers and for the podcast. We've been doing this for four seasons now, which is actually pretty wild to say out loud, the journey that we've been on and the conversations that we've had, and to be at the four-year point or the fourth season point of our podcast.
Alexis Zahner (00:58)
is amazing. But it's also we are making the decision for the time being that we're going to take a little break from Live and Work More Human so that we can breathe some life into other areas of our projects and careers at the moment. yeah, and just make sure that when and if we return to the show here in the future, we can make sure we're still able to give it.
Alexis Zahner (01:27)
everything that we feel our community deserves.
Sal (01:32)
Exactly. I couldn't have put it better legs. And it's interesting when you say those like four seasons. Like I remember I
Alexis Zahner (01:37)
Mm.
Sal (01:37)
was living in Amsterdam when we started. It was I had
Alexis Zahner (01:39)
Yeah.
Sal (01:40)
like a really bad microphone. We were under like dunas and sheets and duvets to try and make sure the sound was okay. And
Alexis Zahner (01:43)
Yeah.
Sal (01:47)
it has been this incredible journey of amazing conversations between us with incredible guests.
Alexis Zahner (01:52)
Yeah.
Sal (01:53)
bringing in the brain snacks, I think, was a really awesome shift as well. And I think, you know, for us well, I'll speak for myself.
Sal (02:00)
It's got to a point where, as a someone who works in the burnout space, not that I'm getting burnt out, but I was just realizing that I wasn't bringing my whole heart to it as much anymore.
Alexis Zahner (02:09)
Mm.
Sal (02:10)
And we've talked about this quite a lot off air as well, about how we're going, what our focuses are, things that are changing in our sort of careers and how we're spending our time. And I
Alexis Zahner (02:20)
Yeah.
Sal (02:20)
think, you know, the word intentionality has always been a big one for us. And so this is something we also need to apply in the context of live and work more human.
Alexis Zahner (02:28)
Definitely. And it I think it's an interesting one because I think a podcast is such a labor of love. I don't think a lot of people see what goes into creating a podcast. And for people like us, people who want to put our best foot forward, not just for ourselves, but I think we've always felt a lot of ownership over the quality of what we put in the world, respecting the time and energy of our community who show up every week to listen to us. And so what
Sal (02:55)
Love you.
Alexis Zahner (02:56)
yeah, we we
Alexis Zahner (02:58)
You've many of whom we have known for years now. and we have been so grateful to be on this ride with people from, you know, Canada, the US, continental Europe and the UK who have been with us since Human Leaders, where we started as an online leadership community and then we
Alexis Zahner (03:20)
We were doing things like masterclasses and events and having incredible speakers join us there to then putting it into the public domain as a podcast. Something that's always been really important for us is that this has felt like a resource, you know, by the people, for the people sort of thing. Like Sally and I aren't producing this podcast from a place.
Alexis Zahner (03:43)
necessarily of expertise, but as people who live what it is we talk about as well and who very self indulgently want to have these conversations so we have an opportunity to learn and grow from the wildly incredible humans that we've had on this show. And as you said, Cell, it's we're at a juncture right now with our careers. I'm about to release a book which is taking
Alexis Zahner (04:06)
a lot of time and energy. and you're heavily in your burnout research and consultancy work that it felt like we couldn't do our listenership and our community the full justice of what we've we know they deserve. But it's not a goodbye. It is see you soon while we take a few months to sort of recalibrate what that looks like.
Sal (04:28)
Absolutely, Lex. And I think there was for me a bit of fear around it for a few months
Alexis Zahner (04:32)
Mm.
Sal (04:32)
of this sort of what if we, what if we lose our currency? If we take a break and we're no longer,
Alexis Zahner (04:37)
Yeah.
Sal (04:38)
you know, putting out episodes every week. But it very much felt I very quickly realized this is coming from a bit of a scarcity mentality
Alexis Zahner (04:45)
Totally.
Sal (04:45)
mindset where I'm not trusting, you know, that sort of intentionality piece that where it was almost coming from we need to do this in order to remain relevant. And it's like that's
Sal (04:56)
That's not really been the deeper motivation. It's been to have great conversations and to do it with our whole hearts. And I think as soon as we were starting to see that we're both busy in different directions and not able to give it what it really deserves, then that's the data. That's the data that we need to act on.
Alexis Zahner (05:13)
And it's an interesting one, you know, having just published or about to publish a book on social media and identity and influence and this idea of relevancy is something that's come up for me a lot in recent years. And obviously I've built a lot of my thought leadership around LinkedIn and the production of essentially content. you know, I'm a I'm a writer and an author, but
Alexis Zahner (05:39)
In the modern age, that gets translated into content. and this idea of relevancy, you know, if you disappear from the public sphere for a period of time, who who am I? That's something that I've grappled with. It's the entire thesis of my book, Who Am I? What
Sal (05:50)
Mm. Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (05:54)
does that even mean in 2026? How do we answer that question in a way that
Alexis Zahner (06:01)
isn't so reliant on social currency. And I think that's something not all of us reflect a lot on about. And it has come to a point where we need to live what it is we're writing and researching about. And so it's so ironic. The irony is not lost on me. But it has been a really painful like Sally and I, there have been to be transparent, there have been tears shed in the last few weeks and months around the future of our podcast, the future of our work together. And it's been
Alexis Zahner (06:29)
Really painful because when you build anything like this, there is a part of you that's infused and invested in that. And so to put that part of you down is terrifying. And I know people experience this when they leave a job or a relationship or anything, but it feels like a live and work more human. The podcast has has really we have grown as people inside this you know, beautiful platform that we've created. So it's it's it's
Alexis Zahner (06:58)
Bloody tough to say goodbye for now. Yeah.
Sal (07:02)
It is. There's absolutely again a little bit of that fear I think that comes with grief and with genuinely letting
Alexis Zahner (07:08)
Hmm.
Sal (07:09)
go. And y like you said, tears, conversations, back and forth. I think
Alexis Zahner (07:12)
Yeah, it's sad.
Sal (07:14)
also this being able to trust that through taking a break, taking some really deep breaths, recalibrating, I'm gonna see you in a very short time to be at your book launch up the coast, which I'm so excited for. You know, d I think really trusting that this will emerge into what it needs to be.
Alexis Zahner (07:32)
Yeah.
Sal (07:32)
And we'll
Sal (07:33)
come back to it if that's right. it will look the way it needs to. but also trusting a beautiful community to know that this is the right thing for the podcast at the moment. and we will obviously please keep watching this space because I'm sure there'll be there'll be things happening irrespective. But yeah, we will see what the next stage of the journey looks like for us as individuals and as collaborators.
Alexis Zahner (07:57)
Exciting as well. And you know, we are obviously working on lots of different things at the moment. So maybe let's talk about that as well, Sal. we were just talking before we started recording about some of the burnout work that you're doing at the moment. What's what's most relevant or what's most pertinent for people to know in that space right now? And what are you working on?
Sal (08:18)
Great question. there it it's one of those things I think burnout has not gone away as a topic since it
Alexis Zahner (08:25)
Mm.
Sal (08:26)
my I went through my own burnout, but certainly even since the definition emerged from the World Health Organization a few years back. And it almost feels like it's just becoming more and more of a topic because the really
Alexis Zahner (08:36)
Hm.
Sal (08:37)
the driving forces behind it haven't gone anywhere. to some extent also I think there's this just general urgency culture that seems to be only picking up pace. And we say this every
Sal (08:47)
you know, week or month and this sort of tightening of the vicious circle is a really pernicious situation. I think for me, a lot of my focus has shifted to working with leaders to look at some of the root causes of stress in the workplace. But I'm also thinking a lot about sort of the broader implications in in society for these these the the factors that cause us stress. I think one of the things that leaders are finding also is it's like
Sal (09:17)
A lot of the things we can make changes in the workplace, but there's just this sort of baseline geopolitical but also digital culture that really adds into the mix. And we need to not pretend that it's not. I think we need to be really honest about that. And I think this is exactly where neat segue into your work, Legs, because I think, you know, really bringing to light and understanding how technology is impacting us.
Sal (09:43)
And in impacting our baseline stress level is really important for us. And that's something you're working on at the moment.
Alexis Zahner (09:48)
It is. And obviously my book is really focused on the impact of social media on how we experience ourselves and the world around us. But it's also really impacting how we experience time. And I think because we are so ever connected to one another, but also to the news, to world events, and doing this through technology, I think there's this
Alexis Zahner (10:12)
Overwhelming feeling that time is speeding up for all of us. And I do think the technology we're using has a lot to answer for here as well. AI is obviously adding to that as well. I think, you know, as individuals who come from thought leadership and knowledge work backgrounds, there's this ever-present threat or rhetoric.
Alexis Zahner (10:37)
Of threat that AI is going to replace our intelligence. And so what do we do as a career? Or you know, what do we do for bread? And so I think there's this feeling that things are moving quickly, but we don't, we we're kind of losing our footing in the world as individuals. And I think technology, whether we're able to kind of put a finger on it or not, I think that's where a lot of our sort of that.
Alexis Zahner (11:03)
ambient low-lying chronic stress is coming from this feeling that the world's in such a fast-paced change right now and we're existentially concerned about where we fit as people in that. And I think the problem with that is that we're forgetting that we're also the drivers of that change. So we actually have all of the power as individuals but as communities to determine how we move forward with this technology. And I think
Alexis Zahner (11:32)
w it's being pitched to us as this inevitability that AI will be everything. It will take over everything. And I feel like that's really really scary for many of us. And and and sort of taking us out of the driver's seat. But as as humans, we actually have the sole power over where any of this technology goes. So a lot of my work now is turning towards being part of that legislative change here in Australia. We're seeing a lot of change just this week our government has announced
Alexis Zahner (12:01)
with a a huge fight and and sort of public petition around creating opt-in options for algorithms on social media. So I think we can be part of the change more than we realise. But I think it's going to more than ever take this collective movement for all of us to say, Hey, I'm gonna put my hand up and be part of this, both in my own home, but also genuinely look at where I can be part of the meaningful change at that level as well.
Sal (12:29)
I love that, Lex. And it really just for me reflects also, I think, a lot of the conversations that we've had here and a lot of the people in this community who really have lent in, I think, to
Alexis Zahner (12:39)
Yeah.
Sal (12:40)
understanding how important it is that we embrace our agency, that we tap into that, not only as individuals in the individual choices that we make that pertain to our own interaction with technology, but how much power we have when we collaborate and we c communicate and we connect together. And I think that's a really almost a powerful
Sal (12:58)
message to sort of hold this space with is an encouragement to everyone to stay connected, to find community, to make sure that the moment we're feeling overwhelmed, that's a signal from our soul perhaps that there is an opportunity for us to do something and to listen to that call.
Alexis Zahner (13:15)
Absolutely. And it's interesting because it feels full circle in a way to where we started at Human Leaders, which was this overwhelming feeling that we didn't love what we were seeing in our workplaces and in the world around us. And we wanted to come together to be a part of that change. We know that our community that's always been central to what's important to us is we don't we don't want to work in workplaces that make us sick. We don't want to live in communities.
Alexis Zahner (13:40)
Where we don't feel connected and like we belong and that our communities are safe and we take care of one another. We want to live in a world where collectively we can come together to create something that's bigger than us all and is a world that we all want to live in. And so, in a way, we're still doing this work. it's just looking a little divergent for the two of us right now. but
Alexis Zahner (14:06)
equally as aligned and feels well to me as as well with with the book and and as my experience as a you know millennial leader as well, I think social media is one of the most pervasive issues that we face generationally, but also across the board, because I think the future of the world depends on our young people. And so I think this is a this is a call to action I felt was painfully compelling for me to want to contribute to.
Alexis Zahner (14:35)
and I almost felt like there was no other way forward for me but to create something that I felt would change the future for younger generations so we can we you know, like what happens to the world in generations to come when we lose track of who we are and and what meaningful relationships look like and we become products of the technology we used. It's not good enough that we're not doing more.
Alexis Zahner (15:00)
about that. So for me it just felt like there was no other option. I I had to be part of solving that problem. and and in a few weeks, hopefully my book, when it's in the world, will help do that.
Sal (15:11)
Amazing.
Sal (15:12)
To me, it feels like just a natural new iteration of the work
Alexis Zahner (15:16)
Mm.
Sal (15:16)
that you've already been doing for many years, Lex, which is really putting the focus on empowering people to have the insight and motivation and you know experiential learning that they need to be able to make change. And I think, you know, there's a through line from self-leadership as part of human leadership
Alexis Zahner (15:33)
Mm.
Sal (15:33)
to what kind of work you're doing now with young people and sort of creating that agency and empowerment that we're seeing.
Sal (15:40)
But also the radical responsibility that we can take as individuals and as communities to start to shift. so I think it's just a very, you know, yet another na natural iter iteration. I think both of us have had these, you know, perhaps odd-looking careers from a CV perspective.
Alexis Zahner (15:55)
Yeah.
Sal (15:56)
and yet, and yet, all of this, these things that we've done, including working together at human leaders and on the podcast, is really, I think, an important part, a reflection of who we are and how our thoughts are evolving and how our work
Alexis Zahner (16:07)
Yeah.
Sal (16:07)
is evolving too. And I'm really proud of us both.
Sal (16:10)
for not staying stuck in what feels, you know, successful, but perhaps limiting as well.
Alexis Zahner (16:17)
Definitely. And I think that's always something that I've admired about our community is that we are so fortunate to be surrounded by people who do have this strong moral imperative to want to contribute to the world in a better way. And certainly that's what I've been so fortunate to witness through your work as well, Cell, and your research, this idea that we don't have to accept the circumstances of our workplace if it's driving us to things like burnout. We can at an individual level contribute to that change.
Alexis Zahner (16:46)
But I think what we saw was also a way to tap into leadership and and those in middle leadership positions and higher leadership positions and start to equip them with some of the tools to do that differently. And I think again, we've been so fortunate to connect with a community of people who have that felt sense of agency and radical responsibility for wanting to be part of creating a better workplace and a better world. and so yeah.
Alexis Zahner (17:16)
Thank you all for being part of our community. it is a little bittersweet to be saying pause and see you soon, but it also feels that it's it's just the right thing for us and it's the right thing for our community. And I can't wait for us to most likely reconnect and collaborate on whatever projects or opportunities come to us in the future because we're always
Alexis Zahner (17:45)
brewing something. Yeah, the lack of ideas is not the problem for us. It's knowing it's knowing
Sal (17:46)
Always a few pans on the boil.
Alexis Zahner (17:54)
what to pursue when, how, and why.
Sal (17:58)
Exactly that. So yeah, definitely keep watching this space. thank you again to everyone who's been a part of this community. This community is not disappearing, in fact. You know, I think we'll keep connecting with each other. There'll definitely be more in the future. and we're just really grateful to everyone who inspires us and reminds us of why we're why we're doing this. And particularly want to thank you, Lex. You're the most incredible co-host a person could ask for.
Sal (18:26)
I'm so glad that what started as a work collaboration has emerged into one of the most important friendships I have. So thank you and see you in a few weeks for a beer at your book launch.
Alexis Zahner (18:36)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (18:37)
What what started as an awkward LinkedIn ad and you telling me my
Sal (18:40)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Alexis Zahner (18:41)
data was incorrect. So the internet is a wonderful place and it can actually contribute to some of the most incredible real-world friendships. So thank you for calling me out on the internet. I appreciate that. And I appreciate the way in which you did it, that was able to lead exactly to where we are now. And so you are a shining example of how to
Alexis Zahner (19:05)
be kind and direct and loving and a good friend and colleague. So thanks for being
Sal (19:10)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (19:10)
on this wild ride with me, Sal.
Sal (19:12)
It's been
Sal (19:13)
a pleasure whether I've had my red pen in my hand or not. It's always a joy to work together with you.
Alexis Zahner (19:18)
So everyone, this is Lex and Sal and we are signing off with a see you soon from the Live and Work More Human Podcast for now.
Sal (19:28)
See you soon.