Can Microdosing Awe Help You Reframe Stress?
Outrage is loud, exhausting, and — according to your feed — mandatory. But what if the antidote to burnout isn't more hustle, more mindfulness apps, or more optimisation... it's awe?
This week, hosts Sally Clarke and Alexis Zahner unpack Sally's Fast Company piece on "microdosing awe" — the radical, deceptively simple practice of pausing to notice something vast, and why it might be the most underrated tool in your burnout-prevention kit.
In this episode
Why awe isn't fluffy — it's a nervous-system reset that pulls you out of fight-flight-freeze and into healing mode
The psychology of the "small self": why softening your ego (not shrinking yourself) is protective against burnout
How awe slots into Sally's BRNT framework (Breathe, Rest, Nourish, Talk) as the connective thread, not a fifth pillar
Why we're "saturated with outrage and starved of wonder" — and how algorithms are built to keep it that way
Anger is initiatory, not transformative: holding outrage and awe at the same time, not choosing between them
Emotional boundaries around what you consume — because nourishment isn't just food, it's your media diet
The "stravification" trap: why turning awe into a measurable, optimised habit kills the whole point
Practical ways to bring awe into the workplace — team WhatsApp photo threads, opening meetings with an awe share, one-on-one check-ins
Sally's five straight days of sensory overload in the Amazon jungle, and what it taught her about resetting perspective back home
Key takeaways
Awe = an automatic nervous-system regulator. You don't have to "think" your way to calm — your body can get you there in seconds.
You don't need Kilimanjaro. A sunset, a dog in the park, a piece of music — the size of the moment doesn't matter, the noticing does.
The "small self" isn't about being less — it's about stepping out of ego so you can see your problems (and yourself) more clearly.
Outrage and awe aren't opposites. You can be furious about broken systems and still let wonder ground you — one doesn't cancel the other out.
Urgency culture is profitable, not accidental. Outrage drives engagement — recognising that removes the self-blame.
Nourishment includes your media diet. What you scroll shapes your nervous system as much as what you eat.
Don't gamify awe. The second you're tracking "awe points," you've lost the plot — this is the opposite of a metrics game.
Bring it to work in small doses: open a meeting with an awe share, start a team photo thread, ask "what impressed you lately?" in a 1:1.
Awe is a courageous, almost radical act in a culture that rewards visible exhaustion — doing it anyway is the point.
Links & mentions
Sally's article on microdosing awe is out via Fast Company — find the link and more of Sally's writing at salcla.com
Sally's BRNT framework (Breathe, Rest, Nourish, Talk) — explored across her books and workshops
Referenced: Tara Brach's teaching that "anger is initiatory, not transformative" see more at tarabrach.com
Live + Work More Human is hosted by Sally Clarke and Alexis Zahner. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at www.liveandworkmorehuman.com
Transcript
Sal (00:04.706)
Welcome to Live and Work More Human. Today you're here with me, Sally Clark, and my co-host Alexis Zana. How are you doing today, Lex?
Alexis (00:13.804)
I'm doing well and I'm super excited to dive into today's topic. It's one that when you sent me your article, I thought firstly, it might be a little left of center when compared to what we usually speak about in terms of work life and leadership. But the more I read into it, I thought, wow, this is there's a lot in this that's very helpful personally and professionally for all of ourselves. So firstly, how are you doing? And can you tell us what it is we're speaking about today?
Sal (00:42.52)
Certainly can. Well, I'm doing really, really well. I've had quite high doses of what we're gonna discuss today recently, so that definitely helps. And we are talking today about the power of awe. awe and wonder and these experiences that we can have where our perceptions really shift. And I did a lot of thinking about it, some research around it, being able to tie it back actually quite easily into the impact that it can have for leaders and in workplaces as well.
Alexis (01:10.37)
Yeah, it's a fantastic article, Cell, and let's open with getting into it then. Let's dive straight in. Now, in the article, you describe or as the feeling we get in the presence of something vast that challenges our understanding of the world. Firstly, what made you connect that specific emotion rather than the rest of mindfulness to burnout recovery?
Sal (01:34.668)
Yeah, so obviously a lot of my work is around thinking about how we can mitigate and prevent burnout, both at organizational levels, even at societal levels, but also what we can do as individuals to sort of fortify ourselves against that really horrible experience of a full burnout. And as I was experiencing remote sort of fairly recently, quite a lot of sort of these moments of awe in nature, it sort of struck me that there was something quite profound happening in those moments. And this sense of vastness is
Key. Because I think what happens, and I think everyone listening can probably relate to those moments that we have where we almost zoom out. We physically don't move, but we zoom out from the minutiae of the day-to-day and we connect with something bigger than ourselves, whether it's physical, like a really beautiful sunset that we witness, or perhaps something, you know, human occurring where someone's playing an amazing piece of music, or you're seeing some live music or dance, and it just
connects you with something that is not the day-to-day. It's something more profound, bigger than us, if you will. And I think the way that that connects in yeah, the way that that connects into burnout is that when we're in that physical state of awe, it connects us immediately with nervous system regulation. So we step out of our fight, flight, freeze mode, that kind of sense of alert, of stress, that can become very normalized when we're on our way to
Alexis (02:38.669)
It's
Sal (02:58.775)
Burnout, that sort chronic state of stress, moves us into a physiological state where we can actually start to heal. And it's quite an automatic thing. And I think like many things that we think of in the sort of like where whether it is rest or mindfulness, it can seem quite like a simple thing to do, perhaps excessively simple. But the research really backs this fact that we are able to use or really to step into that parasympathetic nervous system state.
and start to heal ourselves. And when we start to bring that into our everyday, it can fortify us against the full experience of burnout.
Alexis (03:33.892)
Certainly something that struck me personally reading at Cell and reflecting on my own experiences of awe, but also my own experiences of of stress and certainly stress in a workplace environment is that we're often really stuck in our thinking selves. We're really stuck in intellectualizing everything and trying to think our way out of challenges. And I think the thing with awe, the thing with spending time in
nature and away from places and spaces that call for us to try and think our way out of things? Is there a really embodied experience or is something that you experience as a full body thing? It's something that when you sit with in a mindful way, you can feel it in your chest and in your belly and in the relaxation of your neck and shoulders and whatever your physiological response to that is. Is that something that you've experienced through that process as well? And tell me sort of
again to that nervous system piece, how that kind of connects in with that a little bit.
Sal (04:28.917)
Absolutely. I think we can all relate to that sense of the perspective change that happens where we zoom all the way out and we almost feel like we can see the little version of ourselves from above. That can be how profound or can operate on us. It's really about sort of not ignoring stress, but you're reminding your system that there's more to reality than the stress. And over time, that can really change how we feel about the world around us, how we connect with it, how we also connect to what matters to us and
Alexis (04:33.998)
Mm.
Sal (04:57.141)
really empowers our agency to change. What I see a lot in our modern work lives, and I definitely relate to this, like very intellectually driven, very much a sort of an analytical thinker and a problem solver. And often we've sort of thought our way into situations, whether it's a sort of a deep state of of stress in our careers. So we just assume that, well, I now I have to think my way out of it.
And actually, we can harness, and not to oversimplify things or to bring in any level of toxic positivity, but we can actually harness our physical and physiological bodies to foster that nervous system regulation, which can pull us out of the heightened state of alert that really eventually will drive us towards burnout. And or absolutely does that. It does that in a couple of ways. So it stretches your mental map. So that means sort of like your usual, usual means of fathoming scale, thinking about control and what
Alexis (05:30.073)
Mm.
Sal (05:46.796)
defines importance, fall away. They can often sort of disappear in these moments of awe. And it also shifts you into what psychologists call the small self. And this is a really important place for us to start to operate from if we're wanting to have a healthy, regulated nervous system in there every day.
Alexis (06:05.419)
I love this idea of the small self. And something that you also mentioned in your article is the small self is a space where our self-focus drops and the ego sort of softens as well. Tell us a little bit more about that piece and why that specifically is quite protective against feelings of burnout or all that depletion.
Sal (06:28.053)
Absolutely. And I do want to differentiate here that we're not talking about making yourself small or not taking up space. Because I think often we can we need to really be really clear that this is not about making yourself smaller in the context of your workplace or diminishing your impact or being less than the full version of yourself. But it's about stepping out of our ego and focusing on ourselves.
Alexis (06:33.921)
Mm.
Sal (06:51.915)
Because what happens when we're on under chronic stress is our vision literally narrows, our perspective literally narrows because we're trying to deal with whatever we perceive the stressor in front of us to be, and or immediately pulls back the curtains on that stress and connects us with something that shifts our focus on ourselves and it actually enables us to make healthier, better, more objective decisions in the moment about ourselves. And that can be about our health, that can be about our work, that can be about our lives more broadly.
But it has this really powerful connective factor with our ability to think and decide differently and more healthily.
Alexis (07:28.651)
And your BRNT framework cell, which you use with in it's in your books around burnout, and it's something I know you use often across the board with professional groups and with lawyers, breathe, rest, nourish, and talk. This has a life of its own. And what made you realize that all wasn't a fifth pillar, but something that could be woven into all four of these as part of that framework?
Sal (07:55.554)
Yeah, definitely. I think I've as I started to look at the research and then look back at this framework, I realized that or is not necessarily sort of a separate component to B R and T, to the practices we need to have in order to avoid burnout. It's more of an experience. And breathe, rest, and nourish and talk are sort of conduits to that experience and others. So I think there's ways that we can kind of use our breath or use our movement, use rest and disconnection.
Alexis (08:16.227)
Mm-hmm.
Sal (08:23.485)
use nourishment in terms of what we consume and use our social environment in order to connect more frequently with ore. And I just again want to underscore this is not about like dropping everything and booking a flight to Kilimanjaro right now and going, well, this is my ore. It's really about seeking out the connection with something bigger than ourselves in our everyday.
Alexis (08:45.035)
And you know, we are in environments, whether it be professionally or personally, where we're just saturated with outrage, with urgency culture and starved of wonder. And this is a phrase that you use in this article. And what's it like trying to introduce something that feels perhaps as soft as ore into cultures that really reward visible exhaustion and always on productivity?
Sal (08:51.254)
Mm.
Sal (09:12.627)
Yeah, and I'd love to hear your thoughts around this as well, Lex, because I think this really ties into the overconnectivity piece that we're seeing in so many workplaces in so many of our lives right now. And I chose those words very intentionally because and the original title of the piece was sort of from outrage to awe. because I think a lot of us are kind of stuck in this sense of outrage. There's a lot to be angry at or disappointed about and sort of get stuck in this quite sort of negative patterning, whether it's in the context of our workplace, because we feel like the systems or the structures aren't working for us.
But also more broadly in our lives. And then we can very easily, I think, struggle to drop that because it's actually the correct response, I think, in a lot of ways. So we think, well, this is actually genuinely worthy of my outrage or my anger. And there is a lot sort of telling me that there's this urgency is valid or feels counterintuitive in those moments. And I think what we need to understand about it is that it's not negating or minimizing how.
valid your outrage or that sense of, you know, we need to change things, things need to change, might be. It's simply fortifying your system, yourself, your perspective in a way that better enables you to deal with those structural and systemic issues that we might be facing. And I'm speaking about this both in sort of geopolitical terms, but also in in even if you're working in a small organization, we can see these things that anger us. What AR does is it grounds us, it empowers us and it brings us back.
To our very humanity, it doesn't diminish our ability to deal with these things that we perceive. It actually improves it. And I think we need to sort of flip the script a little bit there on seeing it as kind of it's not giving up, it's not shifting into sort of a woo-woo space of like, isn't everything amazing? Rainbows and unicorns. It's not that. But it is helping us stay attuned to something that grounds us into the to the living, breathing human that we are.
and with each other, I think there's a social component to it potentially as well that actually fortifies us and empowers us. I'd love your thoughts on this contextualization, sort of in the perspective of obviously your work in sort of social media and our identity in that field.
Alexis (11:26.507)
I think firstly, with the social media piece and the technology and the always-on sort of stream of information that we're exposed to, it's really important that we acknowledge the benefits of outrage and urgency urgency culture in an algorithmically fueled environment that we live in, because in those environments where engagement is profitability for the companies and the big tech that run them.
We know that urgency and outrage produce far more clickbait than things like awe and wonder and things that don't evoke such an emotional response in us. So I think it's really important that we kind of recognize the system that we exist inside and why it is that we feel we're exposed to more outrage and urgency because this is very much a systemic occurrence that's been very purposeful.
By the technology that we unfortunately, especially when it comes to work, have no choice but to engage with. So I think that's a really important sort of thing to acknowledge there. That if you are experiencing this permanence or s you know, semi-permanence of outrage and urgency, that's a very purposeful thing that you're experiencing architected. It's not your fault, it's being purposefully architected by technology platforms to be that way. So I think that's kind of the first piece to kind of acknowledge there.
Sal (12:39.498)
Not your fault.
Alexis (12:48.289)
The second piece I think where many of us also get it wrong, or perhaps it's again fueled by the algorithms, is that we feel this polarity around outrage and urgency sitting at the opposite end of the spectrum from things like awe and wonder and love. And I think that that is simply again a reinforcement of the information we're exposed to. But I think there's more nuance and paradox in that. And the two can very much coexist, as you've alluded to. We can feel that we're existing in a world of geopolitical.
challenges and late stage capitalism and that can sit alongside feelings of awe and wonder and love and reverence and gratitude for the world around us. And I think we so often feel as though we can only hold space for one or the other. And that's often when that's being then reinforced by algorithms and content and just the velocity of information coming at us.
really only positing one side of the the spectrum, we start to feel overwhelmingly like that is the entire world that we exist in, that everything's urgent, everything's infuriating. When in actuality, or as you've said, allows us to kind of take the 50-foot perspective and zoom out and realize actually when I put my phone down or walk away from the workplace or the problem that I'm currently facing.
There is an entire world that exists outside of that current mental framing. So I think that technology and in particular social media platforms and news platforms really proliferate outrage and urgency. And I think they put them front and center for us so that we feel like things are more urgent and more infuriating than is the actual case. And so I do think that or has this incredible way of reconnecting us.
Firstly, with our natural environment, then by virtue of doing that ourselves. So that's kind of my take on it from that technology perspective. I'd love to know your thoughts on that.
Sal (14:46.239)
Echoing everything you've said, Lex, and I think that's a really important thing to understand for us to sort of contextualize why this might feel weird or difficult or counterintuitive. and yet it is simply sort of the the the air we're breathing at the moment. And this is where I think it is, you know, I describe it also in the article as something of a radical act. It will feel a bit weird and uncomfortable. And I think it will take some courage on the part of those of us who do see that there are.
Alexis (14:56.174)
Mm.
Alexis (15:01.657)
It is.
Sal (15:14.859)
In certain instances, there's genuinely apparently good reasons for our outrage and for this sense of urgency. It brings me back to this quote that Tara Bruck shares a lot, which is that anger is initiatory, it's not transformative. And I think that's where we need to be really careful with our anger as well. If we're starting to see that outrage or anger is just a pattern of how we're moving through the world 24 hours a day, every time we open our phones, we've there's that more anger, you know, fuel on the fire. When it's starting to
Alexis (15:28.257)
Mm.
Sal (15:44.13)
morph into this sort of day-to-day state that we exist in. It's actually doing us and everyone around us a lot of harm. So I think we need to be really careful about that. It's a healthy emotion to have. It's an in a healthy response. But when we start to get caught in it, that's not only when we do ourselves a disservice, but that's when we're also succumbing to those messages and to exactly what those tech companies are trying to achieve, which is to keep us online, to keep us spending seconds, minutes on their platform so that they're making more money. It's a
It's a really sm honestly that I mean, it's not for no reason that we're all struggling with these issues.
Alexis (16:18.497)
Absolutely. And I want to add to that because I know you sort of mention a lot about, especially when it comes to the BRNT framework, is sort of putting boundaries in place so that we can focus on these things. One of the key boundaries that I found in my research for the book when it comes to technology and social media is that we often focus on time boundaries, like putting our phone away or getting off our emails by specific time periods or avoiding them during meals, whatever it may be. We often sometimes have spatial boundaries as well, trying to contain them to the office or not.
you know, have our phone plugged in outside of the bedroom, whatever it may be. But often we don't consider the emotional boundaries that we need to put around what we're consuming as well. And to the nourish point of your framework, Sally, it's not just what we eat and drink that nourishes us, it's what we consume in terms of our digital media. So if the things that you are constantly consuming or viewing or reading are creating emotional triggers that aren't aligned to the experience you want to have.
It's really important that you actually slow down and create self-awareness where you can you can start to realize what those whether they're pages or platforms or things that you're consuming that aren't nourishing you in that way and how you can create emotional boundaries around those as well.
Sal (17:34.306)
Such a profound point, Lex, because I think it's where we create these emotional and cognitive boundaries that we really start to see change happen, particularly with nourish when I talk to leaders about, you know, you know, it's fairly obvious what are you, how much water do you drink, do you drink, what do you tend to eat? And honestly, most leaders I speak with either can see that they exactly where they need to improve, or they're already in really good sort of structure with that. They're working out, they're doing all those things. But it's the question, what are you feeding your brain that can tends to stump a lot of us? Because
Alexis (17:48.162)
Yeah.
Sal (18:03.093)
Often very unconsciously, we're actually taking in a lot of images, a lot of advertising, a lot of social media, the doom scrolling, but also just the incidental that bus is late or I'm waiting for my Uber, I'll just jump on Instagram, those moments that actually mean that we are consuming something that's not serving us. And I think taking that really broad definition of nourishment is really key here.
Alexis (18:14.371)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis (18:25.175)
Absolutely agree. And I don't the the next part of what I'm about to say could be a whole other conversation in of itself. But it's interesting because I think what we're consuming is also changing how we view nourishment. And I'll I'll say this as a very online millennial, but my gym habits and my food and sleep habits have almost become neurotically managed as a result of the information that I consume around them as well. And I just want to acknowledge that nourishment.
Sal (18:30.007)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (18:52.819)
doesn't have to be a perfect formula of eating, drinking, sleeping. It's it's about attuning to your needs in any given context on any given day. And I think we can become so neurotic in making that very routine to the point where it's just something else that we're stressing about and trying to measure.
Sal (19:12.755)
And you know exactly how I feel about this legs. It's why I don't measure anything about any exercise that I do or any calorie that I take in. And that's obviously with a history of of eating disorders a sort of understandable point from a a consumption perspective. But you know, people ask, how how far did you run or what was your time? I don't know. And that's a protective mechanism that I have because I know my brain's tendency to start to double down on all of those metrics and to become quite comparative in myself and com competitive against myself.
Alexis (19:17.227)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis (19:24.313)
Yeah.
Alexis (19:31.394)
Yeah.
Sal (19:41.836)
I think it again, it's so normalized. We've all got, you know, the aura rings or we've got the watches, we've all got our gadgets and we're all got our headphones on when we're at the gym. It takes quite some courage to start to peel back those layers of what it means to be a healthy individual. And I just think there's a lot of scope for moderation in this as well. Like great to work out, but just watch when it's starting to become like, how do I feel about myself when I have to miss a workout? Does it start to become unreally uncomfortable for me? That data can be really interesting to look at.
Alexis (20:01.325)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (20:07.619)
Yeah.
Alexis (20:11.595)
Yeah, I I mean I call it the stravification, but it's the optimization culture, right? And and I think awe is something that exists outside of all of this because awe is not something I I think we can create space and plans where we can go and experience that, but it's not something that's easily measurable. And certainly I think it almost feels counterintuitive to try and and it's interesting because we're having this conversation about encouraging people to experience awe, but
Sal (20:16.471)
Totally.
Alexis (20:40.117)
It's just something that's so innately human and something that is such a wondrous gift that we can tap into and experience at any given time. And yet we feel the need to try and connect it to an outcome that will be in some ways optimal or beneficial before we'll push ourselves to go and experience it.
Sal (20:57.985)
And I think what we're losing as well in this whole journey is we're actually losing contact with the wisdom of our bodies and our emotions. Because our bodies will tell us when we have hit maximum reps in our workout or when we are too tired to go for a run. But instead we look to our watches or our apps to try to tell us what to do and how to behave and what we should do next. And we're losing connection with that deep intelligence and wisdom that comes from it. You know, the second that someone in in you know invents, and maybe it's already happened, but there's like an or app and it's like,
Alexis (21:03.935)
yes.
Sal (21:27.585)
How many awe points did you score today? We are screwing ourselves when we get to that point because again, then we're getting distanced not only from our bodies and our minds, but from our hearts and souls as well. This is an opportunity and I think putting down the device and actually stepping into a moment of awe, even just for seconds, starts to foster that stronger connection with the wisest tool that you'll ever own, which is your body.
Alexis (21:29.657)
Yeah.
Alexis (21:50.916)
Couldn't agree more so. And I know that this is something people want to understand in terms of the context of our workplaces and in leadership and what the relevance is. So I wonder, is there a way that you can bring this into a workplace? perhaps it's as part of our meetings or as part of the team gathering. Like, what are some suggestions you have for where or can find a home in our professional lives?
Sal (22:18.953)
Yeah, it's definitely something that can feel quite counterintuit intuitive and feel a little uncomfortable when we start to introduce these things into the work environment. But I've seen it work really successfully with a few teams where leaders have invited t so team meetings opening with an awe moment where people share something that brought them a sense of awe, maybe even over the weekend. So really focusing in on how micro these moments of awe can be and how valuable those all are.
Alexis (22:35.353)
Mm.
Sal (22:45.257)
one team I know started their own WhatsApp group where they share photos. So if they see a nice sunset, they'll actually share it with their team. And it's not about really sharing text, it's just getting little emoji reactions to these little moments of it's a sunset or it's a cute dog or it's a flower that I saw on my walk. These kind of moments that can help us actually share a sense of nervous system regulation. So you don't have to go for the full sort of mindfulness breathing practice to open your meetings necessarily. It's another option, I think, in sort of grounding us in our humanity.
before we start to have you know conversations and get into the nitty-gritty of work. I I think I've also think it's great to in incorporate into one-on-ones from time to time, like what's something that's really impressed you or made you feel part of something bigger recently, and particularly if someone's returning from vacation or a weekend away, sort of double down on those moments of potential awe that they might have experienced, like the wide horizon, being in the ocean, being sort of out there and sort of this different experience that does connect us with something much bigger than ourselves.
Alexis (23:28.227)
Yeah.
Sal (23:44.984)
But that can also be in the context of a a concert or a festival or an experience of music. There's lots of different ways that we can tap into that. I think making or more of a normalized experience can also come from the leader. So starting to talk a little bit more about those experiences you've had, those moments that you see into your day and the impact that it has. It's quite accessible.
Alexis (24:01.048)
Mm.
Alexis (24:05.222)
And I'd love to know from you, Sal, was there a specific moment where you experienced awe or this small self? I know you've done a lot of traveling, especially overseas and you know, places like the Brazilian jungle. What led you to start researching and writing about these micro-dosing moments of awe in the first place?
Sal (24:25.439)
Yeah, a great question. And as you know, I went sort of full tilt on or recently because I went to the Amazon with my brother a month or so ago. he lives in in Rio, so we decided to head up to the Amazon and it's a place that I had long lived in my imagination as being sort of vast and boundless and sort of almost a bit overwhelming in its scale. and just being there in this incredibly sort of
Alexis (24:47.841)
Mm.
Sal (24:50.725)
multidimensional immersive experience. I sort of felt like I was in a state of all for pretty much five days straight. Now that was obviously an almost an overdose as opposed to a microdose. but it was phenomenal and got me thinking when I got back to Rio, just how different my perspective felt, my different relationship to stress to social media. so I started to delve into the research and obviously wanting to ground it back into accessible ways of achieving that.
Alexis (25:01.881)
Hm.
Sal (25:18.281)
In the day to day. So again, we don't all have to be sort of switching over to Google Flights right now and booking a flight immediately to Brazil and heading out to the Amazon. I mean, highly recommend. Do if you can. But being able to, and I've noticed myself doing it a lot more since I got back, even walking into the city yesterday, just the the way the light hit a building, the way a dog was running through the park, the way the flowers are starting to come out in southern parts of Australia now.
Alexis (25:45.837)
Mm.
Sal (25:46.303)
Again, it can sound trite, it can sound again, counterintuitive, and we we've got this kind of almost aggressive urgency energy to us. It sort of feels like we just like, well, that's that just seems a bit dumb. The research shows it it's profoundly not. It's actually a really radical and empowering weapon we can use to strengthen ourselves and ensure that we're not succumbing to burn out culture and to sort of overwhelm culture as well.
Alexis (26:15.129)
So so much in that that I'm sure our community of listeners can go away and start looking for moments where they can bring more ore into their lives already. Where might someone find your full article on this to read all about microdic micro dosing ore?
Sal (26:31.745)
Yeah, so it'll be out on Fast Company. You can find all the links on SALCLA dot com. and obviously it'll be posted in the show notes ASAP as well.
Alexis (26:42.487)
Wonderful. Well, thank you for sitting down with me, Sally, for another conversation on the Live and Work More Human podcast.
Sal (26:50.103)
Thanks so much, likes it's always awesome to stretch my brain with you.