Bringing More Human Into A Tech-Obsessed World with Dara Simkin
Dara Simkin
Dara is helping reshape the global conversation around adult play, adaptability, burnout, and what it means to stay human in a world increasingly shaped by machines. Her work sits at the intersection of neuroscience, behavioural science, improvisation and lived experience.
She is the Director of Organisational Play at the National Institute for Play, founded by play researcher Dr. Stuart Brown. She’s collaborated on research into playful work design with RMIT University and a global toy company.
Her book Full Stack Human, co-authored with Tāne Hunter of Future Crunch, is out now.
Not a minute goes by without the term ‘AI’ being dropped. Most of us are buried on screens for hours and hours each day. We’re speaking less, we’re connecting less, we’re so, unbelievably BUSY. So what does it mean to stay human in this chaotic, at times overwhelming, world? And why does it matter so much right now – more than ever?
Join us in this compelling discussion with Dara Simkin, a global voice in play and founder of Culture Hero, as we explore the concept of being a full stack human. In a world overwhelmed by technology, Dara shares practical strategies for maintaining authenticity, emotional resilience, and human connection. This episode unpackages how to live more human amid rapid societal and technological change.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
The metaphor of full stack humans inspired by technology programming
How biases and early programming shape our identity and behaviors
The immunity to change framework to overcome resistance and foster growth
The importance of emotional awareness and feeling your feelings safely
Strategies for staying human: connection, play, and authenticity
The role of intelligent optimism and strategic hope in shaping a better future
Recognizing and navigating achievement syndrome and systemic programming
How to push back against societal pressures and systems that threaten our humanity
The significance of holding multiple ideas and adaptable thinking
The benefits of embodying a full stack human: vitality, aliveness, and resilience
Learn more about Dara and Culture Hero, buy her amazing book right here.
Watch the episode right now, right here:
Timestamp Highlights and Transcript:
00:04 - Welcome and episode introduction on living more human in a tech-saturated world
00:32 - Dara’s journey to writing Full Stack Human and the inspiration behind it
01:38 - Defining a full stack human through a technology metaphor
02:33 - Understanding the programming of biases and early influences
04:01 - Relationship to change and the immunity to change framework
05:22 - Strategies for improving your relationship with change
06:11 - Embracing discomfort as a space for growth and learning
08:07 - Identity, grief, and how change challenges our sense of self
09:45 - Personal story of grief and identity transformation
11:07 - The importance of feeling feelings and emotional resilience
13:17 - Staying human in a technology-driven world: self-connection and relationships
15:28 - Overcoming complexity bias and simple actions for connection
16:47 - The societal programming of busyness and its dissonance
18:33 - The need to execute on simple, meaningful actions
21:24 - The risks of neglecting emotional health and the myth of busyness
23:23 - The concept of intelligent optimism and seeking credible data
24:45 - How hope with evidence can counter disillusionment
26:36 - Holding multiple ideas simultaneously for adaptability and resilience
29:28 - Achievement syndrome and early conditioning around success
33:43 - Systemic influences on success and the Western work ethic
36:02 - Embodying the full stack human by challenging ingrained systems
37:29 - The importance of agency and micro-habits in fostering resilience
39:23 - The challenge of navigating systemic pressures while staying true to oneself
40:33 - The ultimate reward: living with aliveness, energy, and fulfillment
Sally Clarke (00:02.411)
Welcome to Live and Work More Human Dara. It is so exciting to have you back with us on the podcast again. And this time to talk about your incredible new book, Full Stack Human. We have so many questions. We've tried to narrow them down so that our conversation doesn't run for 14 hours. But to get us started, it's such a robust and practical book. As you know, I called it Unput Downable. It's also highly personal and I think that's part of the reason why.
Dara Simkin (00:14.498)
you
Dara Simkin (00:20.117)
You
Sally Clarke (00:31.927)
Can you share a little bit of your journey to writing this book? What brought you to sit down and put pen to paper?
Dara Simkin (00:39.224)
Well, to be honest, Tana and I had never actually set out to write a book. We co-created a workshop for South by Southwest Sydney two years ago, which was really an amalgamation of both of our schools of thought, mine very much around the play at workspace and his around adaptability and technology and AI and science. And we delivered this workshop, which was called Adaptability at Play, which is really looking at adaptability as an embodiment practice.
you know, giving people the opportunity and, like last time I was on, we, we played the pointing game to really prove, you know, how quickly we can learn about ourselves and explore and, connect with things inside of us that wouldn't normally happen so quickly if it was just a conversation, for example. So Wiley, Wiley happened to be in the audience that day and came up to us afterwards and said, do you want to make this a book? And we were like, sure. And I'm, I'm always very dubious of those kinds of things. like,
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Cool. Sounds good. But then like the email came and then it was, you know, it was like, let's go. So yeah, it was never really a thing for either of us, but you know, Tane has a really famous and well-known global newsletter, which was originally Future Crunch and now Fix the News where they report on good news. I've always been very active for nearly the last seven, eight years writing articles and posts on LinkedIn. So both of us really love writing.
Also like writing keynotes, writing workshops. So it was just, it was sort of an easy thing for us to say yes to because we had this really cool concept that was obviously validated by the fact that Wiley wanted it. And so, yeah, we just got really stuck into it.
Alexis Zahner (02:20.604)
Love that Dara and the title of your book is Full Stack Human. So perhaps that's where we will begin. Can you tell us what exactly is a full stack human?
Dara Simkin (02:33.294)
The metaphor comes from the computer programming space, which when someone's a full stack developer, they can basically create a program from end to end. So the backend bits and bytes, zeros and ones, and all the data, and then the kind of shiny user interface, the apps that we kind of grow to know and love and become addicted to. So calling on that technology metaphor, which again, we thought it was really cool because we are in this huge age of technology, how do we create a technology metaphor for the way that we can show up?
So the backend of what we explore in the book is very much around what our programming is. So we explore the concept of bias, which I think, you know, we make a joke when we, when we first started exploring the idea of bias, we was like, there must be like 10 or 12 biases, you know, that just, you know, confirmation bias, negativity bias, all the ones that have been kind of popularized by kind of pop science and stuff like that. And then we started looking at these and like, Holy shit, there's 188 biases.
that are running the show, but behind the scenes that we have no idea of. And this is really around, how do we sort of fill in the gaps when we don't have enough information, whether we need to act fast or there's not enough meaning in something, how do we actually build out our reality through these biases, which are mostly inherited from our family, our surroundings, our culture, our religion, et cetera. So those are kind of our early programming that's into play.
Then we've got our relationship to change, which I fell in love with the immunity to change framework many years ago when I worked with McKinsey and Robert Keegan and Lisa Lahey's work and really looking at, know, change is hard. And, you know, from a full stack human perspective, it's really looking at change as an opportunity more than a threat. And that's obviously easier said than done. However, when we live in this constant state of change,
Sally Clarke (04:14.925)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (04:27.808)
If we don't change our relationship to change, is going to dominate us. And, you know, we talk about this idea of crashing the change party in the book where you can crash the change party or the change party can crash you. And that's really, you know, figuring out what are your behaviors that are kind of moving you towards or away the thing you want to change? What are your kind of assumptions, your fears, your worries, like really going under the hood to understand.
why change is hard. And a lot of it fundamentally has to do with the fact that we are wired to grow and we are wired to survive. And that in itself is a humongous juxtaposed psychological tug of war that exists within us. And if we don't recognize that, we just kind of acquiesce into what's going on and change feels hard and it always feels hard and we berate ourselves because we can't change. And then we've got, yeah.
Sally Clarke (05:16.941)
Can we just hit pause there for a second, Dara? Because I'd love to, change is such a fascinating topic and it's one that likes that I have a lot of side conversations around. And I love this metaphor of kind of crashing the change party. So taking some agency in your approach to change, understanding what the glitches are, what makes it difficult. Do you have any sort of strategies sort of right off the bat for how we can kind of to start to shift in that direction and improve our relationship with change?
Dara Simkin (05:22.797)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (05:30.766)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (05:43.513)
I mean, it's sort of an oversimplification of it, but just like realizing that change is inevitable. I think it was Buddha who said it was like, change is inevitable, suffering is optional. Like change is forever happening no matter what. And so we can fight against it and kind of go against the tide, or we can find a flow and go with it. And that doesn't mean that it's going to be easy. And I think sometimes we misconstrue the idea of
Alexis Zahner (05:49.051)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (06:11.03)
relating to change in a different way as change will then be easy. And I think that it just like, that's just not true. It's still going to be difficult no matter what, but how we make meaning of it, how we show up to it, how we recover from it, how we move through it, that is what is going to dictate how much kind of almost like juiciness we get out of it, right? Like, change is such a comfortable space and discomfort is where we learn, right? And we can choose
Alexis Zahner (06:16.188)
Yeah.
Dara Simkin (06:41.112)
for that discomfort to become this fruitful learning space. And if we avoid it at all costs, first of all, it would eventually show up for us mentally or physically because the body keeps the score. And yeah, think from a how to kind of manage change perspective, it's really just getting honest with yourself. And again, there's this framework that
Alexis Zahner (06:45.094)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (07:09.302)
is super accessible in the book, which is called the immunity to change framework, which is basically identify what your change goal is, then think about all the things you're doing or not doing that are that again is moving you towards or away from that. And that could be things like, you know, if I have a change goal of wanting to be more flexible, what am I doing in my life that's stopping me from being flexible? Well, I really like being right, or I really like being the smartest person in the room.
or I really, you know, those kinds of just everyday behaviors that we don't necessarily think about. Then we look at what are the fears and worries that are driving that behavior? Well, I like being right because not being right makes me think that I, that I'm actually appearing as incompetent. So this is like a programming from, you know, again, going back to biases and early programming, I've been told something about, or have learned something about how not being right makes you look dumb.
Sally Clarke (08:07.661)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (08:07.845)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (08:07.928)
So I've got these fears and worries that are kind of pushing that idea forward, which then goes into our big assumptions. So, you know, a big assumption even farther to the idea that I look dumb if I'm not in control is that, you know, not being in control is unsafe. And looking at that from a kind of larger perspective of an assumption that we're making about ourselves, the world, et cetera.
Alexis Zahner (08:34.17)
Yeah, I think what I love so much about your book, Dara, in there as well is you really highlighted how deeply these are embedded in our identity. And I know that in the opening chapters of your book, you spoke around your own grief, around your identity when you had sort of a culmination of all of these really challenging experiences come together at the perfect shit storm period of time in your life and how that was really challenging for you. And I think,
what you've just spoken to here. And the thing that we maybe need to label really clearly is that the identity piece is so much of where the resistance comes from. It's thinking we are a certain way or a certain person and change requires us to let go of some of those parts of our identity so that we can evolve into the next version of ourselves. And I wonder, could you tell us a little bit more around your...
story with grief and identity, Dara, that you illuminated in the book because I think you did it in such a beautiful way. And I just know there's so many people in our community that would be grappling with these same sort of entrenched identity challenges when they're looking at change.
Dara Simkin (09:45.185)
I I think for me is like, I just let myself feel those dark feelings. I, we were just talking about it before we started recording. It's like, I have a Spotify playlist that is called Feelings because sometimes we get so caught up in our own minds that we can almost like, we can like feel something is there. It's like, like maybe a tightness in our throat or heaviness in our chest.
Alexis Zahner (09:55.11)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (10:15.438)
but we're so cerebral in the way that we operate that accessing those feelings can sometimes feel hard because we've become so good at avoiding them. So sometimes you just need a trigger that's gonna let the floodgates open, right? And I do it in a safe space. I do it in my room. I turn the lights off. I put my headphones on and I just put music on that I know is just gonna make me ball my eyes out. And you know,
I get to a point where I'm kind of writhing in actual pain. I can feel the discomfort in my whole kind of middle section, like my stomach, my chest. just like, I feel this intensity, this anger, and I'm I'm riding it like a wave because that's what it is and what it needs. And I think just we can be so afraid of those feelings because maybe we think they're never gonna end.
Sally Clarke (11:07.5)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (11:07.51)
And if I open Pandora's box or a of worms or whatever you want to call it, then it's not going to stop. But actually it does because like no feeling is final and we're not going to just become consumed with this emotion and never be able to function again. But I think because in our society, you know, being emotional seems still as a weakness. Being emotional is still not necessarily appropriate in whatever context.
Alexis Zahner (11:14.224)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (11:36.109)
And so we don't have just like the skills to do it. And for me, I think I've done so much therapy over the years and dug so deep into my own way of being that I know I'm really fucking good at compartmentalizing. Like I can just shove something so far down so that I can arrive in a playful place and hold space for other people and bring my energy and be the person I need to be. But then eventually.
Alexis Zahner (11:39.514)
Mm. Mm.
Dara Simkin (12:05.782)
That doesn't, it's almost like you can't keep ramming things in a jar. The jar is going to start to leak or explode or whatever. So the invitation for anyone is to just figure out a way where you can get comfortable with feeling your feelings. And it can be in private. It can be in the dark. You can listen to music. You can shake your body, like whatever it is to just figure out what you need to.
Alexis Zahner (12:11.025)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (12:23.189)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (12:34.926)
to kind of open the pressure cooker and just let it do its thing.
Sally Clarke (12:41.473)
And this is really reminding me of the subtitle of your book, Dara, that we need to be able to stay human in a world ruled by technology. Because when we're talking about being able to access and feel our feelings, and I could really feel viscerally as you were describing that experience, the way that emotions move through the body and really the wisdom that our bodies have, this incredible tool we have to navigate the planet. Do you think, I mean, there's a lot of beautiful ways in the book of
you know, how we can think about staying human. But what does it mean to you to stay human in a world ruled by technology? And to some extent, it feels like it's ever increasingly so.
Dara Simkin (13:17.102)
I think it's really connection to self. I think it's really being in relationship with yourself, which is so hard because again, we live in a society that is constantly taking us away from ourselves. I think it's just learning to sit with yourself. again,
A lot of these, when I share these concepts, sound so oversimplified, but in practice, they are incredibly difficult. It's like noticing, and I know Alexis, is, I'm gonna plug your new book coming up, but the thing with our phones, it is this escape from the discomfort of being still and just noticing the impulse to grab it when there is a moment of like,
I'm at the cafe and my friends gone to the toilet. I can't just sit quietly at the table and look out the window. I have to grab my phone. so yeah, I think, you know, another big part of sticking with our humanity is not only in relationship with self, but relationship with others. Like something that I've been crapping on about recently is like talking to strangers is such a powerful, simple tool to, to reconnect with your own humanity. And.
Sally Clarke (14:32.577)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (14:40.058)
you know, giving someone a compliment on the street or having a chat with someone in the queue, or you're waiting for your coffee. Just having those really fleeting interactions reminds you that you are alive and that there are other people that exist in the world that can be next to you physically, not just through this little black box.
Sally Clarke (14:54.871)
That's it.
Sally Clarke (15:03.029)
I love that study that I think, and I'm have to look it up and it to our show notes, but I think it came out of this Chicago where someone did a comparison of people who interact with other people on the train on their morning commute compared to those who don't. And the data is wild about how much more contentment they experience as a result of these sort of innocuous interactions, a compliment on a hat or a quick chat about whatever or something that you see out the window. I think it, again, we have this complexity bias where we assume that in order to
feel these things, to feel connected, to experience fulfillment, it has to be incredibly complicated and hard and we have to pay for it. Whereas a lot of the techniques that you share in the book that I think are so powerful are kind of misleadingly simple.
Dara Simkin (15:42.158)
Mm-hmm.
Dara Simkin (15:49.923)
And I think that's just like you said, like this complexity bias around, we think that things have to be hard in order for them to work. And I don't know where that's come from or who decided that, but we need to have a chat with them. But that's the same thing with my own work around bringing play to work. It's like, this is not complicated. It is not hard to get your people to have a five minute check-in before a meeting or to like have everyone bring their lunch into the
Alexis Zahner (15:58.886)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (16:03.703)
You
Alexis Zahner (16:03.92)
Yeah.
Dara Simkin (16:19.594)
lunch area on a Wednesday to connect, know, like just as like this necessity of like overcooking things. It's almost it's almost like we do it. It's like it's too hard. I can't do it. And that's just like, is that lazy? Is that disillusionment? You know, like what is the what is the almost cognitive dissonance that's happening there where I don't. Yeah, I'm fascinated by that.
Alexis Zahner (16:47.982)
It's such an interesting one, Dara, and obviously I have spent the last two years researching this. But I think there's a few things at play. I do believe that the sort of sense of disillusionment that we feel and like the disconnection we feel is sort of a result of us feeling completely time poor all of the time. think we live.
in this bubble of narrative of never enough, never enough time, never enough money. You know, we're constantly seeing things about cost of living crisis and this and that in front of our faces all of the time. And so it does, whether we're conscious of it or not, keep us on this perpetual treadmill of I have to keep up, I have to keep up, I have to keep up. And because of that, we're so wired to then be on our phones, keeping up with the news, keeping up with everyone else where...
we're missing, as you say, and the research you mentioned, Sally, like these tiny opportunities, that, you know, seemingly tiny innocuous opportunities just to look up on the train or the tram or on the bus and put the phone down and just have a chat to the person next to us. And I know for me personally, it's because I always feel too busy. Too busy is my excuse for everything. And it's, I think,
the excuse a lot of us use, whether we're conscious of it or not as to why we can't do these seemingly simplistic yet never have the time to do things. And it is, the other thing I will say on that is that, you know, I have these conversations with my partner all the time as well, where he's like, yeah, I already know those things though. Like I already know this, well, I need new information. And I find that really funny because I think what most of us forget is we have to execute.
move on those things to actually get their benefit. Knowing that connection is good for you, knowing that a cuppa with a good friend is better than a thousand memes, isn't good enough. You have to actually execute on the thing. You have to actually put the phone down or finish work at 4 p.m. and take the kids somewhere. You have to actually do the thing. So it actually, in a lot of ways, really is that simple. We're just not executing on the simple things very well.
Dara Simkin (18:52.814)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (19:00.876)
I'd love to comment on the busy thing. Cause I was actually thinking about this since writing the book of like, you know, when you ask someone how they're going and they say they're busy, like that is actually not a state of being. going back to this idea of cognitive dissonance, it's like, I was starting to think about, you know, we call cow steak, right? I'm not saying I'm vegetarian and people shouldn't eat like you eat meat. If you want to, I eat meat. fine. But because of what the reality is of like, you know,
Alexis Zahner (19:03.024)
No.
Alexis Zahner (19:08.591)
Always.
Dara Simkin (19:27.982)
what steak is, you don't say, I'm going to the pub to have some cow. Like, you just don't say that because there's this level of discomfort of the reality of the situation that we have to create this space from it. So I was thinking about how busyness is almost this cognitive dissonance between or around what is actually happening for us. That we are in a state of perpetual
Alexis Zahner (19:47.889)
Yeah.
Dara Simkin (19:52.249)
fried, frazzled, overwhelmed, I'm not enough, I'm not good enough. when someone's like, how are you? You wouldn't say, I'm having an existential crisis. I'm hating being a parent. My work is shit at the moment. It's just like, I'm busy. And it's like, what if we started to actually say the thing? Because I just feel like this blanket statement of busy, know, Brene Brown talks about it being a badge of honor.
Alexis Zahner (20:09.658)
Yeah, totally.
Dara Simkin (20:19.928)
But it's like, if we actually broke down what is behind people's busy, oof, what would we find?
Alexis Zahner (20:25.916)
Yeah. And I think, I think the reason for that is, is we don't have time to deal with the emotional consequences that come with it. Like I know, I, and, I'm not proud to say this, but if there are days my partner comes home from work and I say, how's your day? And he's like, well, and I'm like, oh shit, I don't have time for this. You know, like, you know, it's going to go somewhere. And a lot of the time it's again, that urgency culture, that always busy culture where we feel like we don't have enough time on the clock to actually be with our own emotions or those of others.
Dara Simkin (20:32.311)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (20:42.446)
you
Sally Clarke (20:54.699)
And I would argue here also that we actually don't have time not to, because I think as much as we can succumb to that narrative of like, well, I just, I'm too busy. It's there's too much to do. so, to some extent that might be created, that might be imagined, but eventually the body keeps the score. Eventually that catches up with us. Eventually it's a existential crisis in the form of burnout, or it is, you know, reaching that point where you are so far removed from who you thought you were that you don't recognize yourself anymore. it's, you know, I think we,
we have an obligation to ourselves to be a little bit courageous there as well and to kind of shift that narrative from I don't have time to, to know I have to make time for this because in the longterm, this is actually genuinely what matters.
Dara Simkin (21:37.56)
Amen.
Alexis Zahner (21:38.78)
Now, Dara, one of the concepts in your book that really struck us was this idea of intelligent optimism. Now, I would consider myself as a regular old optimist, but can you explain for us what is an intelligent optimist or what is intelligent optimism? And can you share with us any examples of this in action?
Dara Simkin (21:45.646)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (21:54.478)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (21:58.861)
Yeah, so I will have to give a shout out to Tane because this is his concept from Future Crunch. And intelligent optimism is really about being optimistic based on fact-based evidence. So you are optimistic based on real data that you have found in the news or wherever your sources are that are credible and real. So you are optimistic because you know that better solutions are being built, right? So for example, like his newsletter with his previous co-founder, Gus,
Alexis Zahner (22:10.588)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (22:27.852)
or Ingus Hervey fix the news, these are documented true, not fake news things that are happening in the world that let us know that is not all doom and gloom. Because from a clickbait perspective, from our negativity bias, doom and gloom sells. And if there's 17 news articles about things that are horrible and one thing that's great,
it's gonna be, sorry, if there's 17 things that are gray and one thing that's horrible, people are gonna gravitate towards the horrible bit. And that is, again, a bias that we needed on the savanna back in the day when there was a rustle in the bushes or a shadow we didn't recognize. We had to anticipate danger in order to survive. We are still programmed that way. So again, the more we can understand that we are wired to seek out the negative, not because we're all poopy.
Alexis Zahner (23:14.224)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (23:23.534)
know, poopy heads and we have shit colored glasses. Like it's actually because our brain is wired that way. And the more we can recognize our brain being attracted to that sort of media, like we're not able to foster that sense of intelligent optimism. So the best way that you can be more intelligently optimistic is step outside of your echo chamber of, of, of news and information and start seeking out.
other information that you might not usually seek out. Like if you have, if you see something in the news, go and try and find a contrary viewpoint of it because there is always going to be one. But again, we have confirmation bias as well. Like we go and seek out the information to make us continue to believe our point because being wrong is uncomfortable. So it really is just a matter of realizing and looking at like, where are you getting your information from? Is it credible?
Alexis Zahner (23:54.619)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (24:20.854)
Is it relevant? And if it isn't, go and find something else. Because I think optimism is a great quality. However, it can be just kind of misguided. And it can kind of also kind of tip into toxic positivity around, hey, everything's going to be OK. We're good. It's like, how do you know that? Show me the facts.
Alexis Zahner (24:45.436)
Yeah, I think that's an important point, Dara, because I think it takes us from being kind of in that dream state to actually having a quality of actionable reality in that as well, in that when I can see that there is a path forward or there are good things happening, I think it reverses some of the disillusionment that we are feeling when we see constantly negative news and wars and geopolitical crises and things like this on the internet as well. When we see that there is momentum,
Dara Simkin (24:56.44)
Hmm.
Alexis Zahner (25:13.264)
towards a better future. creates a sense of hopefulness, but it brings a level of reality to our ideology, perhaps as well, if we are one of those dreamers of like, it's gonna be a better world, but here's actually a tangible way we can start doing something about that.
Dara Simkin (25:28.002)
Right. that has to, like, you know, we talk about hope and strategic hope in the book as well, which intelligent optimism and strategic hope, they're very much like peas and carrots because in order for you to have a sense of hope and to believe that you have agency and a pathway forward, you need to see that things are changing, that there is good in the world. You know, you, and again, that's where like these concepts kind of become woo woo around hope and optimism because we don't have evidence. And
Sally Clarke (25:36.397)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (25:56.582)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (25:57.453)
you know, in order for us to actually believe something, like that it's truth, we need evidence. Like that's just the way science works.
Sally Clarke (26:07.543)
For me, it kind of feels like I've long used the term realistic optimism, which is extremely aligned with the, I think actually, intelligent optimism is just a better way of putting it. I might just adopt that. But for me, it's this kind of feeling of having like feet on the ground, but head in the sky at the same time. So I've got my roots down in the evidence, what's actually genuinely happening as a truth seeking person. And at the same time, I'm allowing myself to have that higher vision and look towards the horizon and think about the context of this and the possibility that this gives rise to. And I think...
Dara Simkin (26:11.31)
Mmm. Mmm.
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (26:20.717)
Mm-hmm.
Dara Simkin (26:34.061)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (26:36.171)
The end end of that is really exciting for me.
Alexis Zahner (26:38.832)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (26:38.87)
Yeah. it's, you know, like going back, reflecting on what you just said, it's, it's also, I think with optimism, sometimes you're not able to really accept what is happening as well. or as with intelligent optimism, it's like, yeah, the world is pretty fucked up right now. And it's also getting better. And there's also good things going on. So it's, it's, you know, the and, and, and where, again, going back to this idea of dialectical thinking and being able to hold two ideas in your head at once and.
I think we started to talk about what full stack human is, and then we obviously went on beautiful tangents, which I love. I do think a huge part of being a full stack human is being able to hold your ideas lightly. It's being able to hold more than one idea in your head at once. And the more staunch we are with our ideas, the more, that's based on tribalism and more of that kind of bias and evolutionary programming that we have. Like the worse off we're going to be.
Sally Clarke (27:12.812)
Yeah
Alexis Zahner (27:21.201)
Yeah.
Dara Simkin (27:34.732)
Because everything again is always changing. And if you aren't able to change your mind, change your opinion when better data or better information is given to you, then you're gonna be irrelevant and also wildly pessimistic.
Alexis Zahner (27:50.266)
Yeah, I think it's such an important point, Derek, because for me, intelligent optimism seems to be where dreamers and cynics meet in the middle. And what you mentioned is this idea of intelligence as well. For me, a truly intelligent person is someone who can be flexible and adaptable in their ideas, because I think anyone with a high IQ or who is intelligently optimistic is willing to iterate on their thinking as new information and new data and new perspective comes into the fold. So I think
Dara Simkin (27:56.291)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (28:19.096)
it goes without saying that that's implicit within intelligent optimism. And if you consider yourself someone who is intelligently optimistic, then I would hope that you are regularly changing your mind as new information comes into the fold and not in a fickle way, but in a very considered adaptive, always moving forward kind of way.
Dara Simkin (28:34.638)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (28:40.174)
And I think it's to do with evidence, with data, like numbers don't lie. Maths is important, science is important. It's the way that we can make sense of the world in a way that is, there's proof.
Alexis Zahner (28:44.571)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (28:57.547)
We wanted to turn to a topic that I think all three of us have experienced with recent experience with, we might also say, Dara, and that is achievement syndrome. And it's something that you open up quite early in the book. And it was really the point of the book where I was probably, underlined a lot throughout the entire book, but this was basically the whole page. because I think it's something that just resonates so viscerally for me. And I think for many people, this idea that we become somewhat enmeshed with our achievements.
A couple of questions really, can you tell us a little bit about what it is, what it looks like? And then I'm curious if you have like a message to your younger self that you would like your younger self to know about achievement syndrome, if you could.
Dara Simkin (29:31.342)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (29:40.079)
Yeah, I mean, I would like to pay credit where credit is due. This concept is by Michael Simmons, who's a fantastic researcher and very AI focused kind of tech human guy in the States. I was subscribed to his newsletter. Because I think, you know, and for you, Sally, as well, like you've been working on this burnout space for a long time. And so what was fascinating for me was to actually figure out like what happens before burnout.
you know, like where is that cultural programming? And, you know, based on the book as well, when we talk about an operating system, we're really trying to get under the hood of where this stuff is coming from. And so achievement syndrome is sort of this like slow, steady kind of quiet thing that's happening in the background. You know, we talk about it's almost like carbon monoxide, you know, seeping into the room and you don't actually know it's there until you choke.
or die to be mildly morbid. But it starts with our early programming. And I think for the way that rote learning is set up and school is designed is you get report cards and you get SAT scores and you get a star when you do a really good job or you get a trophy or you get a badge and you're like, ooh, this feels good. And it plays on our dopamine and all those things. And so we start to attach
this kind of value to doing well and being a good kid. And it creates a sense of belonging. It's like when I do the right thing and when I'm ticking the boxes and getting straight A's, I belong, teachers like me, it's great. And so we sort of start to bring that into our young adult life. we might go and have a passion for something and we're plodding along and doing the thing, but then we might get a promotion or we might get some recognition.
And then all of a sudden, the thing that we were really passionate about is now connecting to our identity. Because our output is essentially the thing that's getting rewarded, right? It's extrinsic motivation more so than intrinsic. When we're little, we do things because it feels so good. It's just like, we're just like these little feeling machines. But then as we start to externalize our experience through work and school or whatever, we're getting this
Sally Clarke (31:41.485)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (32:04.098)
this validation elsewhere. So we start to fuse our identity to that output. And then we just sort of start to double down on it. We're like, this feels great. And we're just like, go. And so we sort of, yeah, like we start to, we want to know how to be more efficient. We want to know how to be more productive. We want to know how to smash up more work because then we get even more recognition. You know, we get like,
you know, especially if you're in sales, you're like, I'm going to, I'm getting, I'm winning that cruise to Bali this year to meet my KPIs or whatever it is. But then eventually like that return, it's like this, we call it like the diminishing curve. just like, what goes up must come down. And it just kind of like, it doesn't feel as good anymore. And also because you are not as young and virile as you once were. And so you start to, you're like, your energy slows down, your capacity starts to be eaten away.
And then all of a sudden you're still doing because this is how you've kind of been programmed, but then it doesn't feel as good.
Sally Clarke (33:07.797)
I wonder if part of it is also because it's not just how we've been programmed, but we also have some sense, perhaps subconsciously at first, that it's not genuinely who we are. We're not actually living a life that we want, that we find fulfilling authentically in who we are. We're living according to someone else's idea of what matters, what achievement is, what success looks like. And I think it's like that creeping incremental awareness that can kind of come in a bit like, and again, to continue the morbidity, like Grim Reaper sort of sneaking in the background.
Dara Simkin (33:27.118)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (33:35.917)
And it sort of becomes quite existential. is that, I see that in burnout. Does that track with achievement syndrome too?
Dara Simkin (33:39.192)
Mmm.
Dara Simkin (33:43.215)
Well, I think it's systemically the way that we view success, right? And it's like, when you work your ass off, you get paid. And when you get paid, you get the car and you get the house and you get the fancy watch and you get, it's a status thing. And so, you we can thank capitalism and, you know, a continuously growing economy of where, like there doesn't, there's no end point. Like, it's just like, let's just keep going. Let's just keep going. So I do think.
You know, the programming comes not only from the way our parents view success, the way our parents viewed work, you know, the way our community viewed it, but also just from a more systemic perspective, you know, how the Western world views work as salvation. And I blame the Puritan work ethic a lot, you know? And this is 500 years of programming where, you know, work has been seen as something that is virtuous.
Sally Clarke (34:40.779)
and laziness or rest is sinful.
Dara Simkin (34:42.894)
Correct. Yep.
Alexis Zahner (34:45.497)
Dara, what do you think is the hardest part about actually embodying or becoming a full stack human?
Dara Simkin (34:52.686)
There's like a weird echo all of a sudden.
Sally Clarke (34:56.717)
Yeah, like, do you mind asking the question again? That came like, it started sort of echoing when you think when you unmuted yourself.
Alexis Zahner (35:04.368)
How's my sound now? Still strange? cause I, it's where it has always been.
Sally Clarke (35:06.679)
So yeah, like almost like you're too close to the mic.
Okay, something changed.
Dara Simkin (35:13.207)
Something changed in the way that your mic's listening.
Alexis Zahner (35:14.906)
Okay, I muted for that entire part where you were speaking just so I wasn't making a noise. okay, weird. All right. Maybe it might just recalibrate after it unmute. All good. Dara, what do you think is the hardest part about embodying or being a full stack human?
Sally Clarke (35:19.233)
That's better.
Dara Simkin (35:24.652)
Yeah.
Dara Simkin (35:35.343)
I think it's really going against everything that we have been taught, going against every system that we exist in, really having to be a bit of a rebel around going, I'm not doing this anymore. And the idea that we write in the book is like, how do we stop sacrificing our humanity for success? I think,
Alexis Zahner (35:47.738)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (36:02.616)
based on how much pressure AI is putting on productivity and relevance and speed and all those things. Like I'm finding that finally the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change. And so all of these systems that are essentially fraying at the seams around government, school, work, et cetera, like all of the operating systems that they've been.
operating under essentially for hundreds and hundreds of years is just, it's just not working anymore. And I think sometimes the hardest part about being a full stack human is not getting lost in the sense of helplessness because of these systems, because again, what we spoke about before and in the book, there are so many micro activities, micro moments, micro habits that we can start to incorporate into our life that builds our capacity.
And one of the things that I have been thinking a lot about since the book, and we do name it a bit around the leadership chapter around conditions, you know, like there are some, some conditions and environments that we exist within that we have control over and some we don't. And it's really being able to be honest with ourselves and go, okay, I don't actually have that much control over what's happening at work. However, I can control the media I consume. I can control the people that I spend my time with.
I can control how I treat my mind and my body. And by having agency in that of being able to fill your cup when you can, that then gives you more capacity to deal with the environments that you don't necessarily have the most control over. So I think it's as a full stack human, the tricky part is going, okay, what is in my control and what isn't in my control and the things that are in my control. What are tiny things that I can do?
Alexis Zahner (37:54.481)
Mm.
Dara Simkin (37:59.439)
to build my capacity, to fill my cup. And one thing that I think is really ass backwards, in my opinion, is how we use play as a reward for work. Like, I'm gonna work my ass off and then I'm gonna go on holiday. But then wait, when I get on holiday, I get sick because I'm not pumped with adrenaline anymore and my body can exhale and now I'm sick on my holiday.
Alexis Zahner (38:17.222)
Mm-hmm.
Dara Simkin (38:27.832)
Whereas I think if we see play as a vehicle, as an entry point, as almost like the prerequisite for work, that it allows us to be in a regulated state from a nervous system perspective, allows us to be collaborative, allows us to be imaginative, allows us to be curious, allows us to be adaptable. That is when we can have a more sustainable way of existing.
Alexis Zahner (38:53.628)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (38:54.368)
And so by treating play as a reward, I think we are really missing out because if I want to, you you can't force a frazzled nervous system to rest. need to just like down regulate first a little bit to do that. and if we have practices in our lives where we understand what we need as an individual to down regulate.
Alexis Zahner (39:12.422)
Yeah, yeah.
Sally Clarke (39:13.036)
Hmm.
Dara Simkin (39:23.534)
to have some semblance of recovery, then we can start to really truly rest. So yeah, think the most difficult part about being a full-stack human is basically pushing up against every system in existence while it's also having to exist within it. And again, holding those two ideas in your head at once. I have control and I don't have control. And that is what is, and that's okay because I can figure out ways to...
navigate it in a way that serves me.
Alexis Zahner (39:56.848)
brilliant prospective Dara. And again, another one that feels seemingly simple on the surface in that recognizing where we have agency and, and owning our control in those scenarios. And yet when the world does feel so constantly overwhelming and there does feel to be so many of these bigger societal and global issues at play, we can feel like a tiny little drop in the ocean without much agency. So it's such an important reminder and
A final question, what do we stand to gain and what's the best part about being a full-stack human?
Dara Simkin (40:33.006)
think what you stand to gain is a life that has aliveness. I think that what we're experiencing at the moment is a real...
kind of energy suck. you know, like what does it feel like to actually be alive and feel aliveness in you? Because busy, burnt out, exhausted, overwhelmed, that is not a state of aliveness. And so I feel like, you know, when we talk about hope, intelligent optimism, play, adaptability, that is all aliveness.
Alexis Zahner (40:50.94)
Thank
Dara Simkin (41:16.878)
a sense of energy and just like, I'm alive, basically. I am alive!
Sally Clarke (41:24.621)
Like such, we are alone. And I think this is such a perfect message to end on Dara. It is something that we all deserve to feel genuinely embodied and alive in this amazing, magnificent life that we get to call ours. Thank you so much for coming back to be on Live and Work More Human. It's been such an amazing conversation.
Dara Simkin (41:46.477)
My pleasure. Thank you so much. It's great. It's great to be back with you two lovely ladies.
