Digital Detox: Why Switching Off is a Superpower with Tyler Rice
Tyler Rice
Tyler Rice is the cofounder and CEO of the Digital Wellness Institute and author of Tactical Disconnection. A certified digital wellness educator, he develops tools and training programs adopted by companies like Delta Air Lines, Mastercard, and JPMorgan Chase to promote digital well-being.
Tyler combines academic expertise and practical experience to advocate for healthier relationships with technology. His brilliant new book, Tactical Disconnection: The Secret to Health, Happiness, and Productivity in an Always-on World, is out now.
How can we navigate a healthy relationship with technology in an always-on world? And why does this matter so much for us – at work and beyond?
In this enlightening conversation, we speak with Tyler Rice, founder of the Digital Wellness Institute, exploring the concept of digital wellness and its significance in today's technology-driven world.
Tyler shares insight upon insight from his brilliant new book, Tactical Disconnection: The Secret to Health, Happiness, and Productivity in an Always-on World. He emphasizes the importance of finding a balance between technology use and personal wellbeing, introducing the idea of 'tactical disconnection': small, intentional breaks from technology to enhance productivity and happiness.
Our frank and warm discussion also explores the challenges of digital overuse, the duality of our digital and authentic selves, and practical strategies for fostering a healthier workplace culture that prioritizes employee wellbeing.
You'll learn so much in this episode, including:
How digital wellness is the study of living harmoniously with technology, and why this matters.
The ways tactical disconnection involves small, intentional breaks from technology.
Why finding digital balance is crucial for productivity and happiness.
What makes it hard to disconnect and how compulsive design in technology captures our attention excessively.
The ways we show up as both a digital self and an authentic self.
The reasons positive psychology can motivate behavior change towards digital wellness.
How creating communication norms in teams enhances digital wellness.
PIA: How Perception, intention, and action are key components of digital wellness.
Why leaders should model digital wellness behaviors for their teams.
The ways in which health, happiness, and productivity are interconnected – and how digital wellness impacts them all.
Learn more about Tyler and his work at his website, and learn more about the Digital Wellness Institute right here.
Prefer to watch the episode? Catch it on YouTube here:
Chapters and Transcript
00:00 Understanding Digital Wellness
02:55 The Importance of Digital Wellness at Work
05:56 Tipping Points in Technology and Work-Life Balance
08:55 Defining Tactical Disconnection
12:04 Challenges of Digital Wellness
14:55 Navigating the Digital Self vs. Authentic Self
18:43 Exploring Positive Psychology and Digital Wellness
23:16 The PIA Approach: Perception, Intention, Action
29:50 Creating Healthier Workplaces through Tactical Disconnection
36:41 The Interconnection of Health, Happiness, and Productivity
38:35 Introduction to Digital Wellness
39:35 Insights from Tactical Disconnection
40:35 The Importance of Digital Balance
Alexis (00:02.589)
Hello and welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Tyler. It's so lovely to sit down with you today and you are the founder of the Digital Wellness Institute. Tell us Tyler, what is digital wellness?
Tyler Rice (00:18.018)
Yeah, great question. Thank you so much for having me. So digital wellness is really the study of how we can live harmoniously with technology. And if I were to peel back the layers just a little bit more specifically, it's how we can learn to flourish in this always on digital age. So while digital wellness may be a new term for some, I would reckon and be willing to bet that digital wellness will be as synonymous as mental health is today.
Alexis (00:48.847)
Yeah, well, and it's an interesting one, Talyn, because I think technology from even just 10 years ago really plays an even greater role in our life now. And I think many of us are wondering, you know, do we just switch our devices off? How do we, you know, how do we do this in a way that, as you've mentioned, helps us to flourish, but isn't about getting getting rid of technology, which is sometimes what we feel like we need to do, isn't it?
Tyler Rice (01:11.978)
It is, it is, and it's such a hard dilemma. feel like, I hear that often from people, they feel so overwhelmed and so stressed and they feel like the only way to move forward is to disengage, is to decouple themselves entirely and staying entirely from technology. But that's not the case and that's not the only solution.
Alexis (01:19.123)
Mmm.
Alexis (01:26.375)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (01:26.391)
Hmm.
Tyler Rice (01:36.11)
And so over the course of this conversation, I'm sure we'll dive into what is, in my view, and research supported, is the most optimal way to live harmoniously with technology.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (01:47.842)
And I think it takes some courage for us Tyler too, because we, think particularly when we're in a state of overwhelm, the only, the only option can feel like just getting rid of it altogether. And it kind of makes me think of the research that I do around burnout. And when you're experiencing burnout at work and just extreme chronic stress, you just think that's it. I've got to get out of here. I've got to quit. And so there's that kind of, I think sort of comparative relationship that we have with, you know, digital technology that we're like, that's it. I'm just going to move to a deserted Island. That's the only option.
Alexis (01:56.7)
Hmm
Sally Clarke (she/her) (02:16.163)
And I think when we frame it in that sort of binary way, we end up often just going, well, I guess overwhelm is kind of the only realistic option. I guess I'll just go with that.
Tyler Rice (02:27.31)
Yes, it's exactly right. And you're right. It's almost easier to say, you know what, I'm just going to move to the desert island. I'm going to abstain entirely. I'm going to go back to a simpler time. And I'm not here to say that that's a bad thing. think in moments, that is actually a good thing, right? A weekend away at the cabin, moments of disconnection when we're out hiking. But that's why I really like to reframe the conversation around tactical disconnection, which I again,
I'm sure we're likely to get into but it for me has been a really helpful reframing because it breaks down into little chunks or little moments those those those momentary Opportunities that we have to step away and to implement those into our day-to-day practices Without feeling so overwhelmed and feeling like there's nothing left to do but move to a deserted island and abstain entirely
Sally Clarke (she/her) (02:59.416)
He
Sally Clarke (she/her) (03:24.974)
I love it. And I think really excited to get into this sort of practical unpacking of tactical disconnection, which you do so beautifully in your book. And I'm really excited for our listeners to hear some of these incredibly practical approaches that you have. But I'd love to sort of preface that by exploring what it is about work that makes digital wellness in that particular environment so important. Why does that, why does digital wellness matter at work?
Tyler Rice (03:51.534)
Yeah, well, I think digital wellness has become ever more important since the shift to remote hybrid work in 2020. But we saw the signs of this prior to 2020, and I attribute it back to certainly the rise of technological advancement that allowed us to, work from home, and B, carry our work with us.
pretty much at all hours of the day wherever we are. And so it's the combination of those two things that have made this always on culture feel truly always on. And it is entirely different than it was 30 years ago simply because of the way that technology has evolved and enabled us to be truly have no excuse as to why we are disconnected.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (04:21.422)
Mm.
Tyler Rice (04:35.694)
And so I find it fascinating because I talk to a lot of people about this topic and they say, you know, Tyler, we have always worked hard, right? Absolutely. There's always been hard work and that is a great thing. But something about the way in which we do work is fundamentally different. Something is fundamentally changed and it truly is in the ways that we spend our times outside of work. No longer are we able to disconnect entirely from our work.
Alexis (04:45.222)
Mm.
Alexis (04:54.534)
Yeah.
Tyler Rice (05:03.884)
We are always on, we are always accessible. And the ways in which we value productivity and value hard work and measure that has changed. So instead of us being measured or viewed based off of our output, we're actually viewed, our utility as workers is viewed based off of our input, meaning the time that we spend connected and available. And I think that's fundamentally backwards.
Alexis (05:14.129)
Yeah.
Alexis (05:30.771)
Yeah, it's a great point, Tyler. And you made an interesting comment there where you said we have no excuse to not be working. And that is such an interesting thing to ponder because I recall my very first consultancy job, you know, dealing with clients and things like this. When you were getting an email, typically you were in the office space on a, you know, a desktop computer. So you could only respond to your emails while you were sitting in front of that computer at your desk. And then when you were out on a client off-site or at a visit elsewhere or on your
lunch break, this was pre getting emails to our phone, it meant that there was just this natural disconnection from being able to respond to emails and things like that. And I still feel for me personally, the biggest tipping point in how much I work and my capacity to disconnect was the advent of emails on mobile phones, because I feel like now there is no excuse. And even if I can't action the email, even just knowing that it's there and having read it kind of destroys any downtime.
or a piece that I might get while being away from my desktop. And I wonder, have there been some sort of moments in history or points in time in the last kind of 10, 20, 30 years where you would say we've kind of like, these are tipping points towards it becoming even harder to disconnect.
Tyler Rice (06:48.086)
Yeah, sure. I I thought about this a lot during the course of my book and I thought, you know, when I was growing up as a child in the early 1990s, I observed my parents' relationship to work, right? And my dad, who was a small business owner at the time, was able to work very, very diligently and very hard during the work week. But my mother made him promise when he started his business, she said,
Alexis (07:00.123)
Hmm
Tyler Rice (07:13.804)
This is okay, you can make the sacrifice, you can work 7 a.m. until 8 p.m. But every Friday night and every Friday evening, I guess at 5 p.m., we are gonna drive two hours north to our cabin in Wisconsin, which is close to where I'm from. And at that point in the mid-90s, there was no ability to do work.
Alexis (07:18.342)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (07:33.776)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (07:33.806)
Now, of course, there were pagers, but he didn't work in a profession where a pager was required. And as a child, I read about this in the book, as a child, I observed the slow kind of drip, drip, drip, the degradation of that sanctuary that was our cabin and this kind of tech-free place over the course of five, 10, 15 years. Certainly the advent of broadband internet.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (07:39.47)
Mm.
Alexis (08:02.339)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (08:03.722)
Palm pilots turning into smartphones and iPhones, responsive pieces of technology. so it's fascinating. There's several, several, several points, but again, it's kind of this, what do they call it? Slippery slope, where it really is, you look back and you're like, how did we get here?
Alexis (08:07.14)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (08:07.65)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (08:26.798)
Absolutely. yeah, it's such a fascinating one now. And Tyler, the title of your new book, which was brilliant, Tactical Disconnection, help us, can you define for us what is tactical disconnection?
Tyler Rice (08:38.624)
Yeah, absolutely. it's a term that sounds a little bit more complex than it really needs to be, that it really is. But really when I talk about tactical disconnection, I'm talking about small micro-moments that we all can implement in our day-to-day lives in order to instill that semblance of tech-like balance that we had at one point in our lives, or maybe can remember our parents having. So formally, if I were to define it technically, it is the practice of curving
Alexis (08:59.377)
Mm.
Tyler Rice (09:08.528)
over connectivity with intention and purpose to sustain a point of optimal usage. And so within that optimal usage, I wanna unpack a couple parts of that. Intention, purpose, optimal usage. So optimal usage infers that there is a point of optimal usage and suboptimal usage, right? And I think I approach this topic in a way that makes it clear, I hope to readers, that suboptimal usage
Alexis (09:10.256)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (09:38.4)
can come on either end of a continuum, either from not using technology enough or by using it too much.
Alexis (09:42.29)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:44.504)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler Rice (09:46.794)
And I think it's a very, very fascinating nuance that a lot of people don't often understand, especially in the conversation of digital wellness. I try to make it very clear to the reader that having too little technology is somewhat, in some cases, just as inefficient as having too much. And it's really important for us to understand that nuance so that we can strike optimal usage. And then I talked about intention.
as kind of that litmus test. And that's another key, key aspect of this entire conversation is that what is optimal for you, Alexis, might be different than what's optimal for me or for Sally. And so what I really try to help readers and learners understand is that it really depends on our intention. What is our intention for the day, for the week, for the hour at work?
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:18.989)
Mm.
Alexis (10:30.14)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler Rice (10:44.096)
On a macro level, what is the intention of our lives? How do we wish to spend our time? And the only way we can know if we're on optimal usage is whether our attention is aligned with our intention.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:58.036)
That is such a mic drop moment really there, Tyler, I think matching intention with attention. I'm imagining also that it's not only a matter of quantity of usage in terms of sort of hours per day or minutes that we're using, but it's also quality. So how we're spending that time online. And I can imagine that also to some extent is going to be something that is in flux. There's not going to be one sort of fixed number that we just, that's it. That's going to be it. that's
Alexis (10:58.086)
That's such a powerful note, yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (11:24.822)
we're good forever, that that will potentially fluctuate not only during our weeks, during our months, but also as technology evolves. Am I understanding that correctly?
Tyler Rice (11:32.75)
you are. Unfortunately, I wish there was a magic number that we could, you know, that was scientifically supported that said, you know, five hours a day is perfect. Unfortunately, that's not the case. It is a purely qualitative experience and a very subjective one at that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (11:34.862)
Yeah.
Alexis (11:41.508)
Ahem.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (11:50.168)
So what makes it, because I think this is really a really important message for us to understand, to really become very intentional about how we're using our devices, our screen time, interacting with technology in a way that allows us to flourish and to thrive rather than to feel diminished and overwhelmed.
What makes it hard for us as humans, Tyler? What is the challenge here? Because I think all of us sort of understand this on some level, and yet our behavior isn't necessarily aligning with that awareness. What makes it so hard for us?
Alexis (12:16.22)
Mm.
Tyler Rice (12:21.614)
A lot of things, a lot of things. One, compulsive design technology as I'm sure you may be aware is designed to capture our attention similar to that of a slot machine. we're up against big tech and big tech is incentivized to keep our eyes glued to those screens as long as possible.
So it's challenging to put the onus back on the individual when truly we are up against giants. But that does not mean that we are powerless. again, think one is that. I think the second thing that we're up against too is really social comparison. It's a very motivating driver of human behavior and it can be both positive and negative.
So when it's negative again, that's something that we can and should pull back on right and reframe But when it's positive, that's actually a good thing So there's a lot of nuance in this discussion so many different things that make it really more complex and just a simple, you a simple measure of quantity So that's that's I guess that that's what I would say to that
Alexis (13:42.683)
It's such an awesome point, Tyler. And interestingly, technology is something I've struggled with my entire adult life. Similarly to you, I grew up in the early nineties and so fortunately got that period of our lives where technology wasn't a factor, but slowly sort of introduced, you know, by late high school, the iPhone was a thing by university, we were using Facebook and these kinds of things. So I feel like I've witnessed it slowly infiltrate my life. And I think for me, one of the biggest challenges I actually tried to totally disconnect from social
media a few years ago and I lasted about eight months and it was a slow drip feedback online and I think one of the biggest things for me was this feeling of FOMO almost like without technology without being part of the social web I kind of felt
like I just didn't know what was going on in the world, I couldn't really participate in the world with other people and sort of you know watched a few friendships as well if I wasn't part of a group chat or part of a social media kind of app that I felt a little forgotten about. I wonder has that been your experience? Do you see this happening to other people as well?
Tyler Rice (14:48.096)
Absolutely, and I'll say I struggle with that as well. think what came to mind when you said that, and I don't want to be too meta here, but I often think of the fact that we have two sort of selves, right? We have our digital self that we...
Alexis (14:51.366)
Yeah.
Alexis (15:01.008)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (15:03.971)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (15:06.322)
a very manicured version of ourself, one that we maintain in digital spaces, we have digital friends, have things like that, and then obviously we have our authentic self, or not to say that our digital self cannot be our authentic self, but we have we have ourself outside of technology. And in some cases, I think we have to lose the digital self to find our authentic self, or our non-digital self. Because
Alexis (15:08.815)
Yeah.
Alexis (15:22.865)
Yeah.
Alexis (15:32.401)
Hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (15:32.462)
Hmm.
Tyler Rice (15:35.809)
I ask myself often, at what cost, right? At what cost am I spending 45 minutes a day on Facebook or social media, right? How is that benefiting me? And it comes again back to this notion of intention. If I were on my last day on Earth and I were to look back at all of the time that I spent and not only a quantitative metric, but a qualitative one, what was the quality of my time?
Alexis (15:39.388)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (15:45.869)
Mm.
Alexis (15:46.47)
Mm. Yeah.
Alexis (16:00.741)
Yeah.
Tyler Rice (16:03.064)
How would I feel, right? And would I be just a status on a Facebook page to somebody for somebody to like for all these people that I've collected over the course of my lifetime to like, or would those be people that showed up at a celebration of life? And.
Alexis (16:04.699)
Yeah.
Alexis (16:10.544)
Hmm.
Alexis (16:17.884)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (16:23.117)
Right.
Tyler Rice (16:24.502)
I don't know, I just, again, I think there's a nuance there. It doesn't have to be a binary decision, you know, completely. But I think if you ever feel like you are losing your authentic self in order to have this digital self, I think that's when it's helpful to step away from that.
Alexis (16:45.208)
Yeah, it's a great point, Tyler. one, many of the questions that you've pondered there, I've pondered myself. And it is an interesting concept. think I came to the point where I had this moment thinking to myself, when did I become a personal brand almost, you know, like the social media world is like, when did I feel like it was so critical to manage this personal brand and for whom like what I'm not trying to be an influencer. It's just a little old person in little old Australia. Like, why am I investing so much time in
this online profile for other people to consume. It's a pretty, when you kind of think of it that way sometimes you realize, yeah, it's really not maybe that important.
Tyler Rice (17:25.108)
No, I was thinking about this recently because I struggle with this a lot because of my own need to build a brand, right? And what I've found is that through this tension that I've explored, especially being a digital wellness influencer, right? The irony there is what I've found only recently is that
Alexis (17:29.05)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (17:29.549)
Mmm.
Alexis (17:34.65)
Yeah.
Alexis (17:45.07)
Yeah, I get it.
Tyler Rice (17:53.739)
when I am doing it in a way that is really an outlet for maybe my artistic side of my mind.
Alexis (18:01.458)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (18:02.606)
Mm.
Tyler Rice (18:03.81)
writing things and I'm sharing those thoughts with others when I'm taking photos of my surroundings and the world around me and sharing them not because I think that they'll generate the most likes or that I'm going to hack the algorithm and go viral but sharing them truly because you know actually it brings me joy right? That's the way I've kind of reframed this and I know again people have told me coaches have told me you you have to post every day or every third second day
you have to comment on people and you know that's where I draw the line so for me it's really about my own you know will my own time how I wish to spend it and again making sure that's aligned with my my actions
Sally Clarke (she/her) (18:37.314)
Yeah.
Alexis (18:48.656)
Yeah, I love that, Taylor. you you talk about a lot of approaches in your book, and one of them is looking at the idea of positive psychology as a means for tactical disconnection. Can you help us explore this a little bit more? How might that benefit us in terms of disconnecting from technology?
Tyler Rice (19:05.102)
Sure, sure. So it really is a motivational factor in our behavior change. So when we think about what we stand to gain through taking a desired course of action as opposed to what we stand to lose, we are that much more likely to actually have that desired course of action, that desired behavior. So when we're talking about digital wellness, again, many people think about it in terms of what we stand to lose. And I need that in two ways. A, if I have digital wellness, like you've
Alexis (19:11.963)
Yep.
Alexis (19:15.794)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (19:20.575)
Mm.
Alexis (19:20.688)
Yeah.
Alexis (19:28.774)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (19:35.009)
mentioned Alexis, know, what about those friends on Facebook, right? And to lose that standing and that social kind of standing in their minds, right? But on the second flip side of that coin, we often talk about it in terms of if we continue down this path, what is going to happen to our brains, right? What is going to happen to our attention span? What is going to happen to our ability to think deeply? And that again is a point
Alexis (19:38.192)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler Rice (20:04.992)
of loss. So those statistics are scientifically supported and they're very valid and yet I found in my conversations when I lead with them and say you know if you don't change your digital habits over the course of five years you know you're likely to experience decreased cognitive output, diminished ability to focus, etc. People think gosh so horrible but
Alexis (20:29.424)
Yeah.
Tyler Rice (20:30.442)
doesn't motivate me to make a change, right? So we need to reframe it.
Alexis (20:32.282)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (20:33.046)
It's, yeah, I think it's a really important point, particularly when we're thinking about something that we potentially have to abstain from. And I think if we compare it to things like, whether it's cigarettes or alcohol or other forms of addiction that we have, it can be for humans, think something where the idea of holding back or withholding from a particular behaviour can be really difficult unless we've built a really sort of strong case for ourselves of what we really stand to gain.
Alexis (20:41.541)
Hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (21:00.75)
probably visualizing that, like really going hard, think, like leaning into that sort of supporting ourselves to change that behavior. Because if we're simply motivating it from a sort of a vague impetus, then it's just gonna be really tough for us. So it's certainly in the face of, as you said, this kind of big tech and everyone around us kind of doing it in this very sort of normalized way.
Tyler Rice (21:24.268)
Absolutely.
Alexis (21:25.946)
And so interestingly to your point there as well, sort of the comparison with alcohol and cigarettes. For me, social media feels like something I know I shouldn't be wasting all my time on, but I can't get away from it. And it's the same, you know, if you go out and you have a little too many drinks and you're hung over the next day, you feel guilty about it. So I feel like it's not compelling enough to make me stop. I'm just using it and feeling really crappy about myself.
Tyler Rice (21:49.615)
It's a fascinating comparison and it's one that I think it lands. However, would say similar to drinking, there's a social element to it, right? And so if you're using social media in a way to connect with others and we feel like those connections are...
Alexis (21:59.016)
Mm.
Alexis (22:04.975)
Yeah.
Tyler Rice (22:14.21)
beneficial and helping us, but then again, in moderation, not the worst thing in the world. When it points or tips over to that point of excess, again, that over usage, that's when it's bonus.
Alexis (22:16.294)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (22:16.45)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (22:21.404)
Yeah.
Alexis (22:27.068)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (22:28.846)
And one of my core values, Tyler, is connection. And I've lived on four continents. My brother lives in Brazil. I have this, you know, sort of quite an international array of close friends, not a lot of friends, but very close friends around in, you know, so many different times. It's really annoying, but also very wonderful. And I think it's about that sort of when my connection with them, with my time on social media is driving or fostering and strengthening that connection, then it feels.
impactful and aligned for me and sort of feeds into that authentic self. But it's when I'm just scrolling and tipping from checking my favorite soccer team's latest results into just scrolling all of the players' latest posts. You know what I mean? There's a moment, there's always a moment where I'm like, mm-mm. And it usually takes me a couple of minutes and I look at the clock and I'm like, that was actually five minutes of my life. I'm trying to get better at that. But I think...
you know, reading your book and looking at the PIA approach was really profound. And it's something that I think both Lexis and I are really going to experiment with. We'll get back to you on how we go. But these are the three core tactics that you unpack that we can use to sustain this optimal use of technology that you've described. Perception, intention and action. Can you briefly walk us through, maybe give us an example of what that looks like?
Tyler Rice (23:33.207)
Yes, please.
Tyler Rice (23:49.071)
Sure, absolutely. So perception, I want you to think about your commute. If you're on the bus or the train or you're even driving in your car, right? And you look to the side and you see somebody on their phone, right? Not only are they on their phone, but they are just completely engrossed, completely immersed in that device. I you to think very closely about what are your perceptions of that person in that moment, right?
Is it maybe distracted? Is it perhaps unaware of their surroundings? Is it perhaps disconnected to those around them? Right? So think about those perceptions. And when I do that myself, again, the ones that I mentioned are typically the ones that come to mind. if I had to qualify those perceptions, they tend to be negative ones, right? Then I flip around the equation. I say, okay, now I've been that person a million
Now are those the perceptions that I want others to have of me?
No, they're not, right? What do I want people to think of me? I want them to think of me as somebody that is present, that is aware, that is thoughtful, that is connected, right? And so that, if I had to just sum it up, that is what perception is. It's awakening ourselves to the way others see us when we are in that zone of digital overuse or simply using our devices. And from there, we move into an intention, and it's a reflection on that perception.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:53.837)
Mm-mm.
Tyler Rice (25:22.64)
by just understanding how do we want to be perceived or how do we wish to live our lives, right? And from intention, then we go into action. And action is obviously taking action to make sure that that intention is in fact how we live our lives. And we can do that by making changes to our physical environment to make our intended action easier, as well as our digital environment. I'm happy to dive into those in more specificity if you wish.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:33.998)
Hmm.
Alexis (25:50.96)
Yeah, Tyler, what I love just to rewind to this perception piece here, and I was just thinking as you were speaking, reflecting on that in our workplace environment, because something Sally and I get asked about a lot is, know, how do we build more connection, better relationships, more belonging in our workplace? And sitting alongside that, we also have leaders when we start to dig into some of their habits and things like that in the workplace, we'll find perhaps an employees come to them and, you know, maybe wants to share
something that requires their presence but it's really hard for people to put down their emails or put down their phone while they're having these kind of moments or micro moments where connection might be possible so I think it has
that this conversation has a lot of benefit in the workplace and outside the workplace and I think there's so many of those tiny moments where we don't even realize that technology is actually stopping us from achieving it what it is we want to achieve which is connection or closer relationships and those sorts of things as well.
Tyler Rice (26:51.604)
Exactly, exactly right. And to that point, we often have a stealth perception bias, right? That our action, let's use the example of a boss, right? If I am that boss and an employee comes to me, I'm looking at my actions and saying, well, I need to respond to this. I'm being productive. Look at me, you know? But if I put myself to their perspective, or their point of view, their shoes, I see somebody who's not at all aware or attentive to their needs, right?
Alexis (26:57.766)
Hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:57.87)
Yep.
Alexis (27:02.279)
Yeah.
Tyler Rice (27:21.198)
So if we can reduce that self-perception blind spot, we can be in a better position to actually, again, have healthier digital health.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:31.426)
think the point about intention is really key here too, Tyler, and sort of make it a little bit meta again. think for leaders who do want to have a really profound impact on the people that they lead and that sort of ripple effect through the organization and beyond, understanding that those small behaviors are actually incredibly powerful. And I think the way you described that sort of flipping the script and how we perceive others and our own biases about, you know, the holier than thou that we can bring to our own.
behaviors is really important for us to be really, you know, compassionately honest with ourselves about like what's actually going on here.
Tyler Rice (28:07.894)
Yes, and you know, just to that point too, I cite in the book a study that found perceptions of employees' willingness to work with another in controlled settings. So when a coworker was using their device during a group meeting, for unintended or unspoken purposes, the group's perception of that employee, that team member, was low, and their willingness to work with them again was low. However...
when that employee who was using the devices during the meeting said, let me use this to look up the latest financial trends for 2024.
or let me ask Chatch GPT to help us brainstorm or consolidate these brainstorming. Well then actually, the employee's perceptions of them were higher than in the no phone or no device case. So it's really fascinating. It's a double edged sword and if we can tap into these little, again, tactics, we can become better for it.
Alexis (28:55.987)
Yeah.
Alexis (29:07.143)
That's such an interesting point, Tyler, because I would perceive if someone picked up a phone in front of me mid conversation, I would perceive that as rude and that they were more interested in what was going on on their phone than they were in conversing with me. However, this sort of disclaimer, if you will, hi, I'm just picking up my phone. So, you know, maybe I can use an AI to transcribe our meeting or whatever it might be. It sort of removes the ambiguity or removes the missing piece of information, which is what are you doing with your phone? That's more important than me.
Tyler Rice (29:35.07)
basically that is exactly it.
Alexis (29:37.573)
Yeah, I love that. Now, I'd love to go a little bit further into how as a leader, perhaps we can use tactical disconnection to create some healthier workplaces. Tyler, can you perhaps give us some practical ideas or strategies for someone listening where they can actually go about doing this and creating this environment in the workplace?
Tyler Rice (29:57.377)
Absolutely, absolutely. So I think the first thing that we can do as teams is to discover and come together to discuss optimal.
communication norms during the work day, right? So I'm sure you're familiar with the process of creating a communication charter. But we work in really small and nuclear teams. I think it works best with teams probably under 10 that communicate most often within that group. You can actually come together in a facilitated hour-long session and talk openly about what it is, when it is that you are most productive, when it is that you would like to reserve
Sally Clarke (she/her) (30:06.19)
Mm.
Alexis (30:11.922)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (30:21.176)
Mm.
Tyler Rice (30:34.832)
or four meetings during the day, or when it is that you like to respond to emails. And if you can create kind of a chart across each of those 10 individuals, and to the best of that team's ability, match back to that, we can actually really truly create a better working experience for everybody. And it's not only the practice of defining our optimal times to work, but it's the practice of just speaking openly about our desire for change that I found to be the most,
Alexis (30:35.986)
Hmm
Tyler Rice (31:04.772)
key ingredient to the entire process, especially when that comes from a leader within the organization who is being honest and dare I say vulnerable about their own desires and needs for quote unquote digital balance. So that is just the first thing that we can do. again, we can build on that during our conversation, but I will say it all maps back to I think fighting against or
Sally Clarke (she/her) (31:15.638)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler Rice (31:34.665)
at least creating a culture that says no to a culture of pseudo productivity. What I mean by pseudo productivity is defined by Cal Newport as the use of visible heuristics to measure a worker's utility or productivity. And again, I think that is the core element of tactical disconnection. It's saying no to this archaic and in my mind outdated, should be outdated.
notion that our productivity is directly tied to our connectivity because we know that those two are actually, they do not go hand in hand.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (32:14.382)
powerful point, Tyler, we couldn't agree more. And it's interesting, I thought a lot of Cal's work well as reading your book as well, because I think there's a lot of alignment between being able to really use our technology in a way that augments and supports and uplifts what we're doing. But it often takes a conversation because I think the norm in so many workplaces is this kind of chaotic overwhelm and layering of additional software on top of what we're already using to the point where people are in a sort of a state of
too many meetings, too many Slack notifications, and a bunch of other things that are going on. Being able to sort of consciously come together as a team and really unpack that, talk vulnerably about needs, how we work optimally and how we can work optimally together. That really just also makes me think of not just the digital wellness impact, but the wellness and the wellbeing impact, because those kinds of conversations also drive.
psychological safety, and when we're starting to actually also then take action off the back of them, I think that can really contribute to employee wellbeing in a way that's quite profound as well. And not to mention belonging, because you're listening to my needs and we're acting on them together. I think it's something that we can sort of perhaps write off as kind of, that's an obvious place to start, but I think it's not being done enough. And I think that we really need to kind of shed light on that as a really important.
starting point and before almost going to look for other tips. Like if you haven't done that, start there.
Tyler Rice (33:41.966)
Absolutely.
Alexis (33:44.428)
One more thing I just want to touch on there as well, Tyler, that I kind of deduce from what you're saying is that this idea, and I think we use it as a proxy for productivity all the time, that speed of response and urgency equals productivity. And that's something I've worked across many industries in the past, but especially around, you know, the marketing public relations space. If an email sits without a response for 30 minutes, people like, why haven't you responded yet? And it sort of it also makes me think about Daniel Kahneman's work around thinking fast and
slow, this kind of systems one systems to thinking, we are always stuck in initial responses and we never actually allow ourselves time often to process and truly answer from a place of to use your word, their authenticity. You know, we're in that reactive space all the time because we've created this sort of global community around urgency that infiltrates everything we do. And if we do not respond straight away, therefore we haven't got a good response or we're not always on or and and these different, you know, pseudo
proxies for productivity where we think, if Sally doesn't email me back straight away, she's just not doing her job. It's just not good enough.
Tyler Rice (34:50.722)
Yeah, yeah. You know, I remember my very first experience in this space, and it was about 10 years ago now. But I went to Stanford, I took part in a business incubator at Stanford. And my business was a business focused on bringing digital wellness as a core component of the employee wellness experience.
Alexis (34:59.408)
Yeah.
Alexis (35:07.208)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (35:14.823)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (35:16.194)
And I remember at the end of that pitch, had the judges, the panelists who were senior executives at tech companies look at me and say, Tyler, why would I want my employees to not be always on and always available, right?
Alexis (35:32.211)
Mmm.
Tyler Rice (35:32.399)
And at this point, 10 years ago, was relatively junior in my career and I didn't have a good response. I didn't, but I went after that and I spent the next three, four, five years really having a great answer to that and supporting by research. And if somebody were ask me that now, I would say, well, if your business model is one where you rely on the churn of people within your organization, then fine. You don't have to worry about digital wellness.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:40.579)
Mm.
Alexis (35:40.924)
Yeah.
Alexis (36:02.066)
Yeah.
Tyler Rice (36:02.274)
But if your business is not like that and you know that the long-term success of your business relies on the health, happiness, and the productivity of your greatest asset, which is your people, then you absolutely need digital balance. You absolutely need digital boundaries. And it's not to say that we're not working hard.
In fact, I would absolutely argue in the data supports that if we work intentionally for six, seven, eight, nine hours out of the day, far and away, those teams will be much, much, much more superior than those that work or claim to work 12, 14, 16 hours a day because it's certainly not sustainable and those working hours are not productive.
Alexis (36:42.706)
Yep.
Alexis (36:48.691)
Absolutely, yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:49.998)
And I think the key word there for me, Tyler, is sustainable. And I think we have this very, we continue to have this quite extractive model in a lot of organizations. And to some extent, these behaviors are still a little counter-cultural, but this is why I think your book is so important. And to me gives this kind of optimistic perspective that we are perhaps approaching another tipping point of really understanding how important human wellbeing.
wellness, and then our use of technology that feeds into that really is to great outcomes at all levels, including organizational and business. Tyler, I think we could chat to you all day about your incredible book and your incredible work. But we'd love it if you could leave our listeners with perhaps one insight that you think is really critical for them to understand about digital wellness right now.
Tyler Rice (37:38.04)
Yeah, I think it's in the subtitle of the book. And the subtitle of the book is The Secrets to Health, Happiness, and Perfectivity. Health, Happiness, and Perfectivity. And I want to leave readers with the understanding that all three of those rely on one another in order to be optimal.
In order to be the healthiest people we need to be, we need to be the happiest. In order to be the happiest, we need to be both the healthiest and, dare I say, the most productive. And the same applies to productivity. In order to be the most productive, we need to be the healthiest and the happiest. And so in the context of the workplace, I often hear leaders say, I want to increase productivity. Tell me how. Wow.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (38:10.029)
Mm-hmm.
Tyler Rice (38:24.27)
How you do it is by increasing the health and the happiness of your workforce and how you do that is through digital wellness.
Alexis (38:31.069)
Taylor, thank you so much. Such a profound message that Sally and I could not agree with more. And it's been such a pleasure to sit down with you today on We Are Human Leaders. Thanks for being with us.
Tyler Rice (38:41.954)
Thank you so much for having me.
