Say Goodbye to Your Limiting Beliefs with Muriel Wilkins
Muriel M. Wilkins
Muriel M. Wilkins, founder and CEO of Paravis Partners, is a sought-after C-suite adviser and executive coach with a twenty-year track record of helping senior leaders take their performance to the next level.
She is the author of Leadership Unblocked: Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential. Muriel is the host of the Harvard Business Review podcast Coaching Real Leaders.
What are the seven key blockers to great leadership, and a great life? And what does it take to remove these and get out of our own way, so we can thrive at work and beyond?
In this powerful and timely conversation, author and expert Muriel Wilkins discusses the concept of leadership blockages, exploring how beliefs can hinder effective leadership. She identifies seven common blockers that leaders face and emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and unpacking these beliefs to foster personal and organizational growth.
From “I know I’m right” to “I need to be involved” to “I don’t belong here,” Muriel offers signs and signals to determine which hidden blockers might be at play, where they come from, and the cost of those blockers both on leaders and on their organizations.
This personal and robust discussion highlights the need for leaders to engage in a continuous journey of self-discovery and validation, ultimately leading to a more inclusive and effective leadership style.
Key Takeaways from this Episode
Leadership begins with self-awareness and understanding our blockages.
Beliefs drive behaviors, and recognizing them is crucial for growth.
The seven blockers can significantly impact leadership effectiveness.
Unpacking beliefs is essential for sustainable leadership change.
Internal validation is key to overcoming self-doubt in leadership.
Adulting in leadership involves recognizing and managing our beliefs.
The journey of leadership is ongoing and requires continuous reflection.
Creating a culture of feedback starts with leaders addressing their own beliefs.
The process of unblocking involves awareness, unpacking, and reframing beliefs.
A world of unblocked leaders can lead to a more inclusive and effective organizational culture.
About Muriel
Muriel M. Wilkins, founder and CEO of Paravis Partners, is a sought-after C-suite adviser and executive coach with a twenty-year track record of helping senior leaders take their performance to the next level. She is the author of Leadership Unblocked: Break Through the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential and coauthor of Own the Room: Discover Your Signature Voice to Master Your Leadership Presence. Muriel is the host of the Harvard Business Review Podcast Coaching Real Leaders.
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Chapters & Transcript
00:00 Understanding Leadership Blockages
05:05 Exploring the Seven Blockers
08:01 Unpacking the 'Need to Be Involved' Blocker
11:03 The Impact of Fear on Leadership
13:59 The Process of Uncovering and Unblocking Beliefs
21:58 Exploring Beliefs and Feedback
25:41 The Role of Resistance in Leadership
27:23 Adult Development and Leadership Maturity
30:13 The Importance of Unpacking Beliefs
34:06 The Journey of Integration and Behavior Change
37:58 The Invisible Adventures of Leadership
38:57 Creating a Culture of Unblocked Leaders
40:56 Leading with Humanity
40:56 Creating Flourishing Workplaces
Sally Clarke (she/her) (00:02.328)
Thank you so much for being with us Muriel. Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. We're really excited for this conversation with you today. And we'd love to get started. We're going to delve deep into your amazing new book. But I'd to start with the simple question of what it means to be blocked as a leader and how that harms our leadership.
Muriel Wilkins (00:10.268)
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.
Muriel Wilkins (00:21.65)
Hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (00:25.384)
Yeah, absolutely. So I think we've all had a feeling at some point or another, whether it's in leadership or outside of leadership, quite frankly, even in life, of feeling blocked, feeling stuck, feeling like we're not getting the outcomes that we actually desire in our role or with our team or in our career, whatever it might be, even in our communication. And that feeling of
of being blocked actually shows up differently for different people, right? But one of the things is understanding, like, how do I know that I'm blocked? Sometimes you need that external kind of input to let you know that you're blocked, but really understanding for yourself, hmm, something is off. So that's what I mean when somebody's blocked.
But what I have been really curious about is what leads to a person being blocked. And oftentimes what we tend to do is look at the behaviors, what the person is doing, what that leader is doing or not doing. And I became really curious over some time recognizing that it actually goes beyond the behaviors. It's about the beliefs that drive those behaviors and how are those beliefs either helping you or actually getting you and getting in the way and therefore keeping you in this blocked state.
that I just expressed.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (01:44.236)
I love that you're going deep there Muriel, that it's not these kind of superficial, almost after the fact symptoms perhaps of these beliefs, but it's going to almost the root cause as it were. Am I understanding that framing correctly?
Muriel Wilkins (01:53.97)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. know, because part of what happened, Sally, is I've worked with leaders for a long time. I've been doing executive coaching for over 20 years. And, you know, basically it was a very action oriented coach with my clients where we were looking directly at like, okay, what do you do? Right. Let's come up with the three things, the four things, and they would go and do them, but it wouldn't be sustainable. And as a coach, I really wanted the work to be sustainable, that it would last.
And as I started studying a lot more and learning a lot more about human behavior, really around what drove behavior, I started to understand more around the beliefs, the narratives, the stories that we tell ourselves, the operating system that then leads to those behaviors. But what I found is that while a lot of that language was in parenting books and relationship books and all the life books, not much of this is spoken about in the work.
place around the assumptions that we bring into work and how they then impact how we work and ultimately for me, how we lead.
Alexis (03:03.903)
That's a really important point to make, Muriel, because I think for a long time we've expected that who we are at work and who we are at home don't intersect. And we've always been told to leave that at the door. it's a very powerful way of framing this idea that we are a whole person all of the time. And in fact,
Muriel Wilkins (03:15.656)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (03:22.691)
these blockages that we, you know, maybe have developed over a period of time, be it personal or through our career actually do impact the way we work. Now your book really beautifully looks at seven of these different blockers. I'd love it if we could, can we double click on this for a minute? Can you help us explore what are these seven different blockers? And we'd love to know from you, Miru, have you experienced any of these yourself in your career as well? Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (03:35.356)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (03:42.152)
Sure.
Muriel Wilkins (03:46.281)
my gosh.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (03:47.534)
You
Muriel Wilkins (03:49.139)
Where do we begin? Okay, so first of all, let me take a step back. So when I talk about the blockers, it's literally the belief or the mantra that you tell yourself. are these, if you think about sometimes, right, if you sit back and think about what is a repetitive thing that I tend to have an inner dialogue, something that just keeps coming up in my head that sometimes I'm not even conscious of, which is what I found with a lot of people.
Alexis (03:59.936)
Mmm.
Alexis (04:11.188)
Yep.
Muriel Wilkins (04:17.336)
And it's not to say that the seven that I'm about to mention are the only ones. They're the ones that bubbled up to the top. When I looked across 300 clients, I noticed that there was a pattern and there were these seven that tended to be the most popular ones that came up for individuals. But certainly there can be others. So the seven that came up were, I need to be involved. I can't make a mistake. I know I'm right.
Alexis (04:44.37)
Hmm
Muriel Wilkins (04:47.792)
if I can do it, so can you. That's one of my favorites. It was the big surprise. I need it done now. I can't say no, and I don't belong here. And they are so simple, just these short little statements, but there are these quiet voices that actually have such a loud impact in the way that individuals lead. Right. and so what I, what I, I saw,
Alexis (04:59.647)
Mmm.
Alexis (05:13.097)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (05:16.218)
is that these little mantras could actually then have quite a ripple effect, not just in terms of the leader's behavior, but also how other people were experiencing that leadership.
Alexis (05:27.547)
Mariel, what I find...
most fascinating about the seven blockers in your book is that as someone who's experienced probably all seven at different points in my career, I would say the impact for me on my leadership is that they force me into almost like this fear-based scarcity type of leadership. feel so for me the one that came up the most was I need to be involved but also there were a few others like I know I'm right and these kinds of things and what to me they really
Muriel Wilkins (05:53.704)
Mm.
Alexis (05:59.959)
highlighted was that they drive leadership behavior in a really negative way. Now I'd love to know, can you help us unpack some of these a little further? Maybe we can start with mine, I need to be involved. What are some of the negative repercussions that you see leaders who maybe experience this blocker behaving like and what might someone like me who leads with that lens do to sort of calm that barrier a little bit?
Muriel Wilkins (06:05.628)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (06:23.164)
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing that, Alexis. And by the way, that was one of the ones that I experienced. In fact, like you, I experienced all of these at some point or another. Writing this book was actually really cathartic because I would get to the next chapter and then by the end I'd be like, damn it, I have this one too.
Alexis (06:31.452)
Yeah. Yeah. No doubt.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (06:33.432)
Same.
Alexis (06:42.91)
Yeah. And I suspect a lot of leaders have experienced one or all of them at different scenarios, right? Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (06:47.536)
Right, exactly. you know, what's interesting about that actually is it's not that these beliefs and these are always blockers, right? It's not that they are bad. It's just that they don't always support you. And it's recognizing when they do support you and when they don't rather than having them on all the time. So if we look at the I need to be involved, you know, clearly, for example, Alexis, if you were, know, when you were early in your career and maybe you had like
Sally Clarke (she/her) (06:48.066)
Absolutely.
Alexis (07:00.126)
Right.
Muriel Wilkins (07:16.04)
a very discreet job. I know for me, my first job out of college was, I'm going to date myself here, but it was responsible for direct mail. Right? And I was responsible for the message that was printed on the insurance bill that these insurance holders would receive. That is all I was responsible for. So did I need to be really, really involved in making sure that every letter, every spacing, every little thing was correct? Absolutely.
Alexis (07:44.16)
Yep.
Muriel Wilkins (07:45.031)
belief served me extremely well in that capacity. But as I scaled in my leadership, and this is where I see to your question around where does it get in the way, it particularly gets in the way when leaders have to scale, when they start managing others or they start managing those who manage the scalability of a leader where quite frankly, they don't have the sheer physical capacity to be involved.
Alexis (07:59.102)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (08:10.948)
in everything that they want to or that they feel a need to be involved in. And so that is probably the biggest barrier. They are often the ones who are called micromanagers because literally they want to be CC'd on everything. They want to be in every meeting. They want to make sure that they weigh in on everything. Nothing can happen without them being involved because of this need.
Alexis (08:16.177)
Absolutely.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (08:21.879)
Yeah.
Alexis (08:33.939)
Yep.
Muriel Wilkins (08:34.128)
Now, what's interesting about it is what drives the need. And as you said, a lot of it is fear-based. And for those who hold the belief, need to be involved, there is, when you really sort of start scratching on that belief, there's an underlying belief that they will not be safe if they're not involved. Okay. So it comes down to this human value that we have around safety that basically all hell will break loose if they're not involved. So therefore they're going to be involved. Okay. So yes.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (08:51.736)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:01.996)
I think it's a really, I think it's such an important point to underscore Muriel because my, and I too have experienced all seven, but particularly I can't make a mistake, which served me really well as a junior lawyer, but not so much sort of, you know, as you mentioned, sort of when you're starting to shift into different roles and managing people. But I think when we really understand that it's not just, it can manifest in this kind of controlling behavior, but what's driving it is really this deep fear and it can be quite intense.
Muriel Wilkins (09:12.572)
Mm.
Muriel Wilkins (09:20.946)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:31.766)
almost a sort of a terror that's kind of under underpinning that. And I think it's that sort of deeper work and understanding that root cause is so important for us rather than just blaming what seems to be happening in the moment.
Muriel Wilkins (09:31.784)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (09:41.202)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (09:45.085)
That's right, that's right. And you know, what's really important here, Sally and Alexis, is that even as uncovering what is underlying the belief, that's going to be different individual to individual, right? So even though I can't make a mistake one, yes, one of it can be around control. The other piece of it is where I see folks who have that belief is that it doesn't necessarily lead to control. They actually are quite the opposite. They're trying to get everybody involved, consensus. They don't want conflict to happen.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:57.166)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (10:14.758)
because if it creates a mistake, then they're concerned they're not gonna be accepted by the group, right? So it's grounded in something very different. then there can be something else that drives it. So understanding your story and the origin of it, which is kind of the unpacking of the belief, is quite critical because it's not universal for everyone.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:36.014)
And I love this in the book, Muriel, because you do sort of move us through this beautiful process of uncovering the blocker, then unpacking, and finally unblocking. Can you perhaps walk us through what that looks like and feel free to use either of us as guinea pigs or a more general example?
Muriel Wilkins (10:42.226)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (10:46.876)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (10:52.398)
Sure. Well, maybe we'll go back to that. need to be involved with Alexis. How about that? Are you good with that, Alexis? Okay. Well, clearly you've already uncovered it, right? Which is really the first step. The first step is awareness. And it's even recognizing, even before you get to the belief, it's recognizing that you are blocked, right? That something is off. And again, there's two ways of knowing that. One of it is internal. You have enough
Alexis (11:00.548)
I am more than happy to be the guinea pig.
Alexis (11:14.354)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (11:20.616)
of a sense of knowing when something is off, right? You just feel it in your bones and you're, you for me, I always feel it in my chest, like, something's not right, you know, or I'm just going over something over and over and over again. And that's a telltale sign that something doesn't feel right. I might not quite know what it is. For a lot of times, people who lack self-awareness, there's an external input. This is where we get feedback. We get 360 inputs. So let me start with that. Alexis, how did you even...
Alexis (11:42.656)
Mmm.
Muriel Wilkins (11:48.557)
recognize that maybe there are times when something is off that then led to the uncovering of the belief that I need to be involved.
Alexis (11:57.897)
I think for me, I started really recognizing and it came up in my very first leadership role where I felt really overwhelmed all of the time because I needed to be involved in everything. started to just feel like I was drowning. I could not keep up. I knew it wasn't sustainable, but I did not know sort of how to let go. So for me, it was just this feeling of, my goodness, I'm drowning and I don't know what to do about it.
Muriel Wilkins (12:04.456)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (12:22.258)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (12:26.804)
Mm-hmm, yeah. And so what's really key here and what a lot of people do is what you said, Alexis, is I don't know what to do. We automatically go from this doesn't feel right to what do I do? And I love that you use the term drowning, not that I would want anyone to drown, but when you think about, I don't know if you've ever experienced being in a pool or an ocean water where you feel like you're about to go under, you can tell those who've sort of taken the survival classes and those who
Alexis (12:35.072)
Mmm.
Alexis (12:41.607)
Exactly.
Alexis (12:46.304)
Mmm.
Alexis (12:52.809)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (12:56.36)
I mean, I remember the first time I experienced that, my arms went, what do I do? What do I do? Let me stop. And then somebody who was with me was like, don't panic, breathe. Think about what you need to do. Think about what's happening. Assess the situation first before you move to action. So in that first step of the uncover stage, it's becoming aware and then starting to name what is the belief. So it literally starts with a very simple question.
Alexis (13:04.657)
Mm. Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (13:25.916)
Here's the behavior that I'm having. What is the belief that is driving it? And you name it. And in your case, you named it as I need to be involved. Then you can move on to step number two, which is the unpacking. And the unpacking is about understanding this belief. Again, we tend to move straight to action rather than trying to understand. I think about it very analogous to going to the doctor. If you go to the doctor and you're like, doctor, I'm not feeling well. I have a bruise on my...
Alexis (13:31.424)
Mmm.
Muriel Wilkins (13:55.537)
My arm hurts and they just go, let's just put a bandaid on it. Right. Let's just wrap it up. But they never say, well, let's try to figure out what's leading to the bruising or what's leading to the pain. You know, nine times out of 10, you're going to end up right back at the doctor. Right. Cause you haven't really figured out what's happening. And because you haven't figured out what's happening, you haven't really been able to administer the right action.
Alexis (14:05.108)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (14:21.458)
to take against that. So in this second phase of unpacking, it is about understanding what is driving that belief. Where did it come from? And it's also so that you can recognize it in the future. So for you, Alexis, when you think about the, need to be involved, where do you think that came from for you?
Alexis (14:40.54)
You know, I've done quite a bit of work, fortunately, Miriel, to help uncover this, but for me, it really came from if I'm not involved, they don't need me. So I'm not needed here. So as a young leader in particular, it was just a quest for relevance. I needed to prove my worth, my competence, my relevance. And that felt like having a finger in every pie to make sure that I was proving that I had any kind of relevance to the team. Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (14:44.616)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (14:50.524)
Hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (14:57.085)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (15:08.176)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, thank you for sharing that, Alexis, because underlying each of these beliefs are actually just some fundamental human needs, right? The need to feel worthy, the need to feel safe, the need to feel like we are part of a collective because that was survival, right? And so understanding that that's where it comes from, but then...
Alexis (15:24.722)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Muriel Wilkins (15:30.569)
pulling it forward to say, do I really, is this the way that I fulfill that need today in the same way that I did in the past, right? Is part of the unpacking. Not so that you can shame yourself or anything like that, more so that you can be friended and actually say, my gosh, yeah, I see why this was helpful and it might not be helpful for me now.
Alexis (15:50.079)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (15:53.095)
Right, so then you can move on to the third phase and the third phase is unblocking from the belief and this is where the magic happens, right? This is where we're getting really close to action. It's when you say, okay, so that belief, I need to be involved, isn't serving me, what belief would serve me in this situation that will allow me to not feel as overwhelmed as the way that I feel right now, in your case, Alexis, right? And so when you reframe, from reframing, then you can move to action. So in your case,
Alexis (16:16.768)
Mmm.
Muriel Wilkins (16:22.192)
What do you think you could reframe the belief to so that you then don't feel like you're drowning, you feel like you're on top of things rather than being overwhelmed by them?
Alexis (16:33.632)
It's such a good question and I think for me maybe there were a few sort of things that came out of that the first one was that I can let go and and not of everything but just this need to kind of like claw and and this feeling and Sally so eloquently describes this often when we do sessions it's like this releasing of like the talents being so dug in deeply to everything to feeling like I can I can let go a little bit and create some space to maybe reprioritize
Muriel Wilkins (16:42.183)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (17:03.586)
or whatever it might be. So I think for me the really deep underlying was I can let go a little bit. Yeah, please.
Muriel Wilkins (17:10.364)
Yeah, may I ask you a question? How do you define your relevance now?
Alexis (17:17.984)
My goodness, that's a really tough one because I still am so, I think, achievement driven as well and I still get a lot of relevance from my contributions. I would say specifically in a workplace setting, my relevance now...
Muriel Wilkins (17:31.932)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (17:40.321)
comes from our team contribution to the outcomes that we can help achieve for some of our clients. So that's specifically in a workplace setting. I think in my personal life, I can step back and still feel relevant without necessarily having to achieve those things. But for me, that's how I sort of feel relevant within the career realm.
Muriel Wilkins (17:57.212)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (18:02.984)
Okay, so that's really important because you sort of tied this initial belief to relevance, right? And that need doesn't go away, right? I mean, you're human. But the question is, is the formula still the same? And what I heard you just now do is sort of change the definition of how you contribute. And so if the new definition of contribution is not, as long as I have my talents and everything, then I am worthy, right?
Alexis (18:07.84)
Mm... Mm... No.
Alexis (18:19.72)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis (18:31.283)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (18:32.761)
But the new definition is if I can optimize the contributions of my team to the client, that is relevance. That's how I'm defining success. Then what is the belief that would be aligned with that?
Alexis (18:46.304)
I think the belief aligned with that is... gosh, this is really tough on the spot. I think it's around being of service to others helps me feel relevant. bit less in a desperately needing to prove that from a sense of self-worth kind of way, if that makes sense. When I can help people in the world, I think is a nice way to be relevant.
Muriel Wilkins (18:57.564)
Hehehe.
Muriel Wilkins (19:03.9)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (19:10.887)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (19:15.908)
Mm-hmm, yeah. And so perhaps it's not the, need to be involved, you know, I need to be involved in everything, but it's I need to be involved in certain things that actually help my team, which then narrows down. mean, you can look at your, and then we can move to action. You can look at your to-do list and say, how much of what I'm doing is reflective of me being of service to my team so that then they can optimize the way that they contribute. Rather than this blanket, I need to be involved in everything.
Alexis (19:16.692)
Yeah.
Alexis (19:20.681)
Hmm.
Alexis (19:24.969)
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
Alexis (19:31.71)
Yeah.
Alexis (19:36.884)
Yeah.
Alexis (19:45.385)
Yeah that's such a, even right now that's such a powerful reframe and reminder for me that there's still more work to be done in this because I'm sure as Sally could probably attest who has to work with me the most there's still probably times when I've got talons firmly gripped in things so what are your thoughts?
Muriel Wilkins (19:50.79)
Mm.
Muriel Wilkins (20:00.177)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (20:01.806)
Oh, look, every now and then, and I think it's really helpful, actually, reading your book and then having this discussion even now, because I think it also gives us some language around, you know, I can perhaps then reflect back to Lex, if I'm feeling like, is this the need? Yeah, is this the talent I need to be involved in? To be able to have that language around, you know, providing that feedback in a helpful way. Because I think once we've started to explore this work in a really meaningful way,
Alexis (20:07.454)
Yeah.
Alexis (20:16.384)
You're grouping.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (20:31.264)
it's not going to be a one and done, right? We're not going to flick a switch and suddenly be, you know, not subject to that belief from time to time, particularly if it's a very deeply held sort of long standing belief. But being able to support each other through evolving in that process. will say Lex is amazing and very, very self aware to work with. So I've got, she's got a pretty high baseline there.
Alexis (20:32.864)
Hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (20:41.415)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (20:45.832)
Absolutely.
Alexis (20:48.928)
I don't try.
Muriel Wilkins (20:52.796)
Yeah, yeah. And look, I'm glad you said that because the goal is not to get rid of the beliefs. That's not the goal at all. The goal is to become curious enough and mindful enough that you can question whether the belief or the assumption, whatever you want to call it, is actually serving you in this particular situation that you're in. Because again, if you operate...
with the assumption that's actually aligned with the outcome that you wanna have, which in your case is to optimize the team's contributions, boy is that path a little easier to take, right? And so that's why the beliefs that are not aligned end up being blockers. They just slow you down. It's like having your parking brake on and trying to drive. You're gonna move, you know, but you're gonna be struggling moving.
And that's when we start feeling overwhelmed. So you're getting work done, right? You're still, I'm sure the team is still contributing, but you're just experiencing with a lot more difficulty than you need to.
Alexis (21:42.492)
Yeah.
Alexis (21:54.621)
I just want to pause quickly on something you said there, Muriel, because it just rang so true for me. And that is this idea of working but with the handbrake on. Because for me, it felt like there was this constant resistance. And I'm like, gosh, why is everything so hard to get done? Why are there so many bottlenecks in the team? is work taking so long to reach fruition without realizing that, I'm literally the bottleneck.
Muriel Wilkins (21:57.544)
Hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (22:15.356)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (22:21.862)
Yeah. Or part of you, right? Let's give a little credit. But yeah, a lot of times, that's right, that's right. And resistance, and I didn't make this up. mean, this comes from schools of wisdom way beyond me, right? Resistance is the path of suffering. And so that's why even in that middle step, when you are unpacking the belief, the reason why you want to kind of cozy up with the belief is so that you can accept it.
Alexis (22:22.24)
That is all me. Yeah, I am damming the river. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (22:24.846)
Thank
Alexis (22:36.272)
yeah sure yeah
Muriel Wilkins (22:50.982)
You can just understand it and you accept it and you're like, yep, it's there. And when you can accept something, it doesn't mean that you go into passivity, but you can see it for what it is. my gosh, here I am again in this, I need to be involved. It comes from a place of wanting to feel relevant. Why do I want to feel relevant right now? Is that how I should be defining relevant? Okay, thank you very much. But now I got to pick up another belief for this situation. But if you resist that, yeah, it's going to be parking brake on.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:19.63)
And I think that's something that I have spent many years doing. Muriel is really resisting that. Maybe it's because I can't make a mistake and then I realized that that was a mistake. And so then I judged myself. It's like the second arrow in Buddhism. It's like I was experiencing suffering and then I was judging and blaming myself for the suffering. I think being able to bring a gentle and loving and compassionate voice to those beliefs and understanding that at their root, they're trying to keep us safe. trying to keep, you know.
Muriel Wilkins (23:31.142)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (23:36.252)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (23:46.258)
That's right.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:47.298)
take care of those basic human needs is such an important reframe, but it also sometimes feels it's hard because we're so used to being quite self-critical and driven and wanting to really achieve amazing things. And it can feel a little counterintuitive to sort of be gentle with that part that also seems like it's undermining us.
Muriel Wilkins (23:57.725)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (24:01.724)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (24:05.404)
Yeah, I mean, I think what's hard about it is that you're unlearning how you need it to be, right? And if you even think, you know, not, I'm like one of the least woo-woo people out there, but to be honest, when you look at leadership and when I looked at like the feedback that the leaders that I coached would get, what I started to realize, it took me a long time to realize this is like, what people really want is for this person to mature. They want them to actually start adulting.
as a leader. And so when we think about adult development theory, which is basically around, you know, when you develop as an adult, which not all people do, and it is not tied to chronology, it really is about your ability to have the mindset to deal with more complex situations. Well, then what does that need? What it requires is you to have a more expansive mindset because you can hold different beliefs.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:46.606)
Mmm.
Muriel Wilkins (25:00.612)
all at one time. You can hold the both and or the triple and or the quadruple and, right? And so this is what the work is. But in order to do that, you have to take the one that you've been holding onto for, goodness, so long and say, okay, you've done me good, but you're not the only one. It's like saying, you know, my gosh, yes, you are my, you're my only child, my favorite child. But guess what? You're actually not my only child. I have like 10 others who I love just as much. And let's, you know, let them into the room as well.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:23.406)
you
Alexis (25:29.056)
Mmm.
Muriel Wilkins (25:29.384)
So it can be the challenges is that we are letting go of habits. We're not making it habitual anymore. We're moving from habitual thinking to conscious thinking. And conscious thinking is about choice. It's about saying I can choose what assumptions I bring into this particular situation. And if I can choose assumptions that are aligned with my actions, again, it will be the path of least resistance. But if I don't choose,
I'm giving it up to chance whether I'm gonna end up with a path that works well for me.
Alexis (26:07.154)
Muriel, for a leader wanting to do this work, you mentioned something earlier that really rung true for me as well, and that is oftentimes we'll, you know, we might be fortunate enough to uncover this pattern. Certainly in my life,
Muriel Wilkins (26:11.663)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (26:23.1)
I want to take the quickest road forward. So for me, jumping straight to action, when I kind of went down this path for the first time, felt like the fastest way to resolve this issue. And it really felt uncomfortable for me to go through the real deep work of the unpacking phase. It felt like I could just skim over that and get to the what now part of it.
Muriel Wilkins (26:25.852)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (26:34.93)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (26:42.024)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (26:45.736)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (26:45.81)
What might we stand to risk if we don't actually do that deeper work of unpacking it and we try and skim straight through to action?
Muriel Wilkins (26:54.46)
Yeah, mean, the risk is actually, I this is what I my clients. I'm like, you know, you'll just end up right back where you are right now. Right? I live in a lane and here lanes are circular. Right? So you'll just end up right back in front of my house. Might take a while. It might be real quick. I don't know. Right?
Alexis (27:01.344)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Alexis (27:09.535)
Yep.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:13.134)
You
Alexis (27:13.268)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (27:18.144)
And even if you said it was, sometimes you just want to move to action, all that is assigned is that you might just not be ready to unpack it. And that's fine too. And so you have to think, I often think about clients because I'm in a coach to others trying to mirror what I hope they will be able to teach themselves through the process. I have to assess if somebody's coachable. I have to meet somebody where they are. So sometimes folks aren't ready to unpack.
Alexis (27:40.202)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (27:43.873)
They're good at stage one. Let me just become aware. And then they're like, that's it, I can't do anymore. Okay, so that's where we'll start. There will be plenty of other opportunities because the belief's not going away. So guess what? We can already track what behavior it leads to. There are gonna be other opportunities. Don't you worry. And then at that point, you'll get a chance again to say, okay, what do I wanna do now? Do I wanna try to go through the process or do I wanna kind of try to, you know,
sort of short circuit it, bypass the process, which is fine. You'll just end up right back where you are.
Alexis (28:14.494)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:20.494)
And what I really love about your book, Muriel, is I think so many people are going to be able to pick this up, read it, really get so much out of it and really kickstart that process, which no doubt would be helpful to then continue with a coach to perhaps go deeper into those beliefs. But I think it really just sheds a light for so many of us on what those sort of deeper beliefs might be and sort of be able to sort of inform us and inspire us then to start to do that work. Because I think particularly
Muriel Wilkins (28:29.65)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (28:33.639)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (28:34.536)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (28:50.446)
There's a lot of leaders get a lot of feedback, a lot of 360s and sort of end up feeling a bit overwhelmed or just sort of jaded with the process and having a lot of operational things to keep them busy as well. So I think there's this really, there's something and I don't want to dismiss it by saying it's simple, but I think there's a beautiful simplicity also to these blockers that you've been able to identify that makes them very resonant for a lot of people. So I think it's a really incredible tool for people to use.
Muriel Wilkins (28:53.308)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (29:00.096)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (29:01.596)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (29:13.052)
Yeah.
Alexis (29:15.253)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (29:17.802)
and take forward with the mesoledas if you've got a coach to work with to sort of guide that process.
Muriel Wilkins (29:21.692)
Yeah.
Yeah, and there's a couple of things there, Sally. mean, first of all, I'm a sort of simple person, right? Like I need things broken down to me in very simple terms. So part of it was like, my God, you it took me years to even figure this stuff out for myself. And then when I got it, I was like, that's it? Okay, like it's pretty simple, right? Not simple to do, but much simpler to understand. So in a way, I kind of wanted to offer that to others.
Alexis (29:33.044)
Yeah, I hear that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (29:33.539)
Love it.
Muriel Wilkins (29:52.893)
I think secondly is my hope actually is to have folks in a place where they don't necessarily need an external coach to be able to do this work, right? I mean, the two of you actually demonstrated it beautifully today. Like if you have some shared language and the simple act of being able to say to a colleague, hey, you know, I noticed that you kind of lost your temper in that meeting today or not even I noticed like you lost your temper in that meeting today.
what's going on and the colleague might say, I'm just so overwhelmed with all the work we have to do and people aren't getting it right, da da da. The simple question of, what's the assumption you're making that's making you feel that way in the meeting? It doesn't have to sound like a, and I'm not a therapist, this is not therapy, right? Like it literally is just being curious about the assumptions, about the beliefs, not just going straight to the actions.
So I'm hoping that there's language that folks can have with each other. And also then ultimately the conversation you can have with yourself, right? Because then it becomes sustainable. You carry it around with you all the time. And it's just a practice. I mean, I'm at a point where I practice this all like today. I was like really just procrastinating a lot on my work. I just was like, Mariel, like what is it that you're thinking right now that's leading to the procrastination, right?
Alexis (31:03.093)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (31:18.184)
And I dug through and not dug. took me five minutes. And to be honest, I didn't do anything about it. I just was like, OK, like I get it now. Right. What do I want to do? You know what? I'm going to work on this instead of that. But it gives you a choice.
Alexis (31:21.364)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (31:27.278)
love it.
Alexis (31:31.168)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (31:31.478)
That's exactly what it is feeling when you're saying that it's kind of bringing it back to this point where it's no longer just an automated behavior and perhaps some self-flagellation going on at the same time because you know you're procrastinating but going, I have a choice here and this choice is okay. Period.
Muriel Wilkins (31:42.226)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (31:46.973)
That's right. That's right. But most of us are action oriented, so we will want to do something about it, right? And so that then helps accelerate it. It helps accelerate it. And I always know when I'm working with someone when they got it because they start, they will bring a situation up and then they'll say, I know exactly what you were going to ask me. And I'm like, okay, we're done. Because it's not about having the answer. It's about asking yourself the right questions.
Alexis (31:55.84)
Mmm.
Muriel Wilkins (32:15.26)
that help you then look at the situation and then deal and act on the situation differently than what you have in the past.
Alexis (32:20.576)
Mmm.
It's a powerful point, Muriel, because I think for me, running from having to do the unpack piece was how I spent, you know, most of my young career as a leader. I didn't really want to do the integration work. And I thought that the awareness alone was going to get me there. So it's a really important reminder for all of us that just having the knowledge doesn't drive the behavior change. We have to be brave enough to actually go into the integration work, slow down, choose differently, and sometimes sit
Muriel Wilkins (32:31.975)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (32:38.716)
Mm-hmm.
Muriel Wilkins (32:44.305)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis (32:52.598)
with that discomfort until that sort of new habit is formed.
Muriel Wilkins (32:54.406)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, to be honest, it's like writing a book. I saw the physical copy of my book for the first time the other day and my partner was with me, he's in the book. Now he's like, my gosh, why did you put my name in there? And he said, how do you feel? And I said, it's this weird feeling when you have an idea which is all.
Alexis (33:09.938)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (33:11.662)
Hahaha!
Muriel Wilkins (33:21.33)
kind of just out there, energy in your brain, it's an idea, so it's the awareness, you have an awareness of something. And then you see the physical manifestation of it. But between the idea and the physical manifestation was three years of work, right? And work doesn't mean it has to be hard, you know? In fact, my hardest days writing was when I was resisting, when I was telling myself, nobody's gonna like this book.
Alexis (33:30.624)
Hmm.
Alexis (33:36.541)
Yeah. Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (33:49.063)
Why am I doing this? This doesn't make any sense. Blah, blah, blah, The easiest days of writing when I would just say, just write, just do it, right? Total mindset shift. And so what you're talking, that unpacking stage is the one that everybody wants to skip over because either A, they don't understand the value of it, but more importantly, B, it's like, it's hard, it's slowing me, it's slowing me down.
Alexis (33:56.137)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (33:56.172)
Yep. Yep.
Muriel Wilkins (34:16.306)
But it's, mean, I don't know anyone who goes from idea of a company to the company being hugely successful overnight, right? There's a bunch of things that need to happen in between and the same goes with us as individuals and as leaders.
Alexis (34:22.432)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Alexis (34:31.368)
You know, Mirio, and what's most fascinating about that, if I could add a C, is that that's the phase that doesn't get rewarded externally. No one sees those hard sets and reps. And that's actually the most important part of the journey for the individual, I think.
Muriel Wilkins (34:44.316)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we started off this conversation so we started recording. was sharing that both my kids just went off to college and last night my partner and I kind of looked at each other and I said, you know, we need to give ourselves a little pat of the back because nobody, nobody saw those 18 years, right? So what you're saying, Alexis, part of adulting is not waiting for the parent or for the adult to come and say, good job, good job, you did the work. Part of adulting is being able to look at yourself and say, yeah.
Alexis (34:52.072)
Yeah.
Alexis (34:59.218)
Hmm... No.
Alexis (35:08.797)
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins (35:14.148)
I did that, right? And look where I am. And I can also understand that there were times that I tripped up and I didn't do good. And that's okay because the cumulative effect is what matters, right? And so the being able to internally validate and celebrate yourself around the work that you do over the long term, which never ends, by the way, never ends, is critical because who else is gonna do it for you?
Alexis (35:15.091)
Mm-hmm
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:35.266)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:41.026)
I love that reminder so much, Muriel. think it's something that, you know, one of my core values is adventure. And it used to be something that I defined as like, you know, hiking to mountain tops and getting those sort of peak moments very externally. But I've realized that some of the most beautiful adventures that I've been on are actually completely invisible to the outside world. They've been entirely internal adventures and, you know, challenges and overcoming them that no one has born witness to.
Muriel Wilkins (35:57.769)
Mmm, that's right.
Muriel Wilkins (36:07.442)
That's right.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:07.592)
But those have been some of the most, in fact, the most valuable. And I think reframing that and understanding that is a really beautiful part of adulting, as you put it.
Muriel Wilkins (36:15.31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember there was somebody who I used to hear speak a long time ago. And he would say how folks would always say, you know, my gosh, I want to be like you. And I want to do I want to be, you know, because he was pretty significant in the role that he played. And he would always say, you know, there's no glory without the story. And what he meant by that is if you want this, if you actually want to be in my seat today, the way that you're seeing me,
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:37.484)
Yeah, yes.
Muriel Wilkins (36:44.838)
you've got to take everything that's come along with it. And that's both the wins and the, you know, not so great days. And so, yes, you know, nobody sees it, but that's where the magic actually happens.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:48.494)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:59.072)
Incredible. Now we could chat for so long about your incredible new book, Muriel. Thank you so much for being with us on We Are Human Leaders. We'd love to hear from you. And this is perhaps a bit of a macro question. But what do you think a world of unblocked leaders might look like? What is the sort of the ripple effect or the bigger impact of that process when we start to scale?
Muriel Wilkins (37:05.736)
course.
Muriel Wilkins (37:18.746)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, you know, there's, think I mentioned earlier, I'm kind of a simple person, right? And we talk a lot about culture and organizational culture and culture at large, et cetera. But when you think about what culture is, it's basically a collective set of beliefs, right? When I think about conflict, conflict often happens because there are misaligned beliefs, misaligned.
different assumptions or misinterpretation of others' assumptions. And so when I think of this work at a macro level, I fundamentally believe that if we really want to change the way that the world operates, we can't just go straight to, you know, what are we doing, you know, which is often what happens. We're quick to move. We need to understand what are the beliefs that are at play that have gotten us here, right? So we need to do some unpacking. We need to own them.
and then take responsibility and say, do we want a different set of beliefs? If what we truly want is peace or if what we want for our organization is an organization that's intelligent, that provides feedback, an organization that is inclusive, all the things that we tend to see on the values board, right? If we truly want all those things, then what are the beliefs that are actually gonna support it? And it needs to start from the leaders.
Because if they don't have those beliefs, they cannot expect anybody else to have them as well.
Alexis (38:46.408)
Muriel, such a powerful individual and collective call to action there. And it's one that we hope will inspire leaders to take up the invitation to do this work for themselves. So thank you, Muriel, for being with us. And we are human leaders. It's been a pleasure.
Muriel Wilkins (38:58.247)
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. It's pleasure. Pleasure's all mine. Thank you.
