Should We Ditch Employee Engagement? With Mark C. Crowley
Mark C. Crowley
Mark C. Crowley, a pioneer in workplace leadership, speaker, and bestselling author of Lead from the Heart. He is the host of the acclaimed Lead from the Heart podcast. His new book is The Power of Employee Well-Being: Move Beyond Engagement to Build Flourishing Teams.
The term ‘employee engagement’ has been bandied around for decades. And yet it’s failing to improve outcomes for organizations, teams and the humans that work in them. So what does drive positive change at all levels?
In this impactful conversation, Mark C. Crowley unpacks the critical shift from traditional employee engagement metrics to a focus on employee wellbeing.
And we’re not talking about yoga classes and fruit bowls. We’re talking about building systems and workplaces that foster wellbeing. Because wellbeing should not be an afterthought: it’s the engine of organizational performance.
In this wide-ranging and impactful conversation, Mark emphasizes that wellbeing is not merely a perk but a fundamental driver of organizational success. The discussion highlights the importance of regular feedback, managerial accountability, and the role of love and positive emotions in leadership. Mark argues that leaders must understand their values and foster a caring workplace culture to enhance employee performance and satisfaction.
This conversation is essential listening for human-centered leaders at all levels!
In this episode of We Are Human Leaders, you'll learn:
Why wellbeing is the driver of organizational flourishing.
The backstory on why engagement metrics have not improved over 20 years.
How regular feedback is crucial for employee performance.
Why wellbeing should not be a perk but a priority.
The need for managers to be accountable for their impact on employees.
How to create a caring workplace culture that enhances performance.
Key reasons leaders should know their values to lead effectively.
How trusting employees with autonomy improves wellbeing.
Why love and positive emotions are essential in the workplace.
The impact of personal accountability for effective leadership.
About Mark
Mark C. Crowley is a pioneer in workplace leadership, speaker, and bestselling author of Lead from the Heart. He is the host of the acclaimed Lead from the Heart podcast. His brilliant new book is The Power of Employee Well-Being: Move Beyond Engagement to Build Flourishing Teams.
Learn more about Mark's work and where to get his latest book right here.
Prefer to watch the conversation? See it on YouTube here:
Full Episode Transcript:
Chapters:
00:00 The Engagement Dilemma
04:56 Rethinking Employee Well-Being
07:52 The Shift from Engagement to Well-Being
10:50 Understanding the Business Case for Well-Being
13:47 Managerial Responsibility in Employee Well-Being
16:57 The Importance of Self-Awareness for Leaders
24:51 The Journey of Leadership and Self-Discovery
25:47 The Importance of Feedback in Leadership
30:57 Defining Personal Values and Credo
35:12 Loosening Control for Employee Wellbeing
40:53 The Role of Love in Leadership
47:48 Leading with Humanity
47:48 Creating Flourishing Workplaces
Sally Clarke (she/her) (00:02.725)
Thanks so much for being with us today, Mark. Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. We're really excited to have this conversation with you. So many fascinating topics to delve into, but we're gonna start with engagement, which is a word that has been bouncing around in organizations for more than 20 years now. And it's really been a key metric that HR in particular has used. What is it about engagement that means that it's really failed to shift the needle?
MCC (00:30.666)
So the big picture direct answer is it hasn't gotten better in all those 20 years. That's the big takeaway. So you look at that and you say, well, wait a minute, like we've been talking about this for a long time and it's been a big HR initiative and every, know, engagement's important, right? We're all on board. But the fact of the matter is that we didn't take it seriously. And so I associate that with starting with Wall Street.
Wall Street has never thought that it was important. So they didn't go to CEOs and say, you better make sure you have high engagement. So CEOs didn't make it important. So what we did was we surveyed people once a year. And then after like 10 years, people said, well, once a year probably isn't enough. So we should do twice. And even twice a year, by the time the feedback got to managers, it was late. People are looking at it and they go like, that person's upset about something that happened six months ago. Like, that's not important to me.
And then there was no accountability, right? So when the results came out, if people were unhappy or even specifically saying, I work for a really bad toxic manager, please help me, there was never anybody, like particularly in HR or in senior management or anywhere saying, let's say that I was the manager that the survey revealed was toxic. So somebody should come to me and say, hey, Mark, you're getting great results, just like pretty much everybody, but people hate you.
Like they don't want to work for you and you need to fix that. And we've never done that. So what happens is, is that people pour their hearts out into the surveys. The surveys get out to the managers. No one's ever accountable. Managers never do anything with it. And guess what happens? You've actually lowered engagement because people are actually angry now that you took them through this process and you did nothing with it. So there are more reasons, but I think that pretty much sizes it up.
We never took it seriously. It hasn't gotten any better. We've tried for 20 years. It's time to move on.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (02:33.265)
Amazing. think it's such a, you know, for a lot of people listening, this is going to be like heads nodding moment because it is something that, you know, to this day continues to be referred to as this kind of, you know, we need to drive engagement. But given that it really, you know, just really hasn't shifted things, it really is important that we're asking, well, what will? And your work does an incredible job of really looking at that question. So can you share with us what really does make the difference?
MCC (03:02.904)
Well, one thing that you said that's interesting, because I have found there is a lot of head nodding. There's a lot of good for you, man, because I've been thinking this for a long time myself. Right. But there's also people that are defending it in the HR space. I found like, no, we take it. We take it really seriously in our company. And we, you know, we we're doing a great job. and I I can only say look into your own heart on that, because if you really truly have great numbers.
they're not affecting the aggregate. Right. So we're not even seeing like a slight increase. So if you've got some companies that just went out and killed it and voted tons of energy and everybody takes it seriously top to bottom of the organization, you would think those numbers would improve, improve the results. And they haven't gotten any better globally either. So it's not just in the United States. It's everywhere. No one ever really made this happen. No one ever held anyone accountable for it. And, and,
And we'll get to this, I hope. But surveying people twice a year is stupid because by the time you get to it, like everything's at a date and nothing's current and you can't adjust to it. All you can do is go, well, I guess that wasn't very good. What do we do now? Right. So obviously my book, coincidentally, is called The Power of Employee Well-being for a Reason. Right. So I'm arguing that not only is it time to ditch engagement because it hasn't worked,
We haven't made it sincere, but it's also a complicated process, right? So we asked 12 questions. Let's just assume that we asked the Gallup 12 questions. One of the engagement questions is, do you have the proper equipment to do your job? And another question is, do you have a best friend at work? So now you get the survey back and you see your engagement is low. What do you do? Do you go and get somebody a new computer or do you help them meet people in the company?
I mean, it's too fragmented. So we'll dig into this. The big picture here is that there is research, remarkable research, which shows that simply asking people how they feel on any issue, simply asking them how they feel about work is a great, great driver, perhaps the greatest driver of employee performance. How people feel, which, by the way, is the whole premise of my first book, Leap From the Heart, which is
MCC (05:30.114)
We're not rational beings. Every everything we do is influenced by feelings and emotions. Right. So if we a consider that as being factual about employees and B, if we survey people more regularly through poll surveys and ask people at the end of this week, how did you feel on a scale of five, four, three, two, one, one being awful, five being great or bright green being very happy to bright red being very unhappy or angry. Right. So
everything in between. And what they've been able to show, this research from Oxford was able to show this, there's a direct relationship week to week in terms of the key metrics, the key performance metrics in how people feel. So if you do a pulse survey and you find out that people are unhappy and you find out why they're unhappy, then management can get together and go, what can we do? Like, how can we pivot? What can we do to make this better?
There's always going to be times for work and sucky, right? It's just challenging. But there's always things that you do to make people feel better about it. Right. And so the technology is so great now. I mean, it's sort of absurd that we take, you know, we do two surveys a year and engagement, and then it takes a month or two before the results get out when you can do a poll survey today. And the results of it are sitting on everybody's desk all the way up to the CEO at the end of the day.
Alexis Zahner (06:29.562)
Mm.
MCC (06:58.606)
And you can even use AI to sort of say, how do we make sense of this feedback and what can we do? So immediately, managers can bring their teams together and say, this is what we heard. This is what we can fix. This is what we can't fix, but why? And so people go, wait, you're actually listening to us? You're actually responding to us? And you're actually making some things better. Like, this is just infinitely better than the system that we've been using for engagement.
Alexis Zahner (07:05.681)
Hmm.
Alexis Zahner (07:26.203)
So Mark, moving beyond engagement then and something obviously, which is the primary topic of your new book, which is employee wellbeing. Now, wellbeing is another word we hear really bandied around in this space right now as well. A lot of leaders, lot of HR leaders know it's something we should be focusing on, but I don't think many people are doing it well and getting it right. So can you help us unpack this term a little bit more?
What is the business case for employee well-being? And what is the threat of having poor employee well-being in the workplace? Can you help us understand this a bit more?
MCC (08:00.558)
You know, I saw a statistic probably, no one's ever asked me this question before, so this is cool. But it was like about 18 months ago where they said that, so visualize a graph of employee health care costs for a company, all right? So you kind of assume, we keep seeing statistics show the costs are going higher and higher, right? It's just higher to get health care, particularly in America.
Alexis Zahner (08:07.107)
you
Alexis Zahner (08:12.325)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Zahner (08:20.763)
Mm-hmm.
MCC (08:30.296)
But what they were able to show is that the costs for companies for mental health care were on the verge of exceeding physical health care. And so in the past, you know, we've had employee health programs and it's like, you know, hey, you can have three conversations with someone who will listen to you. That's about it. And that's all we've ever given people. But we are seeing particularly post COVID, you know, a major spike in mental health. Well, people are needing that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (08:40.688)
Mm-hmm.
MCC (08:59.35)
support and so they're going to doctors and psychologists and therapists and so forth. Well, those costs are becoming rather significant. So I think what happened is that companies looked at that and said, we got to do something. So just like they did, and I'm not being cynical, I'm being very honest and direct. What they did with engagement was superficial. Otherwise, the results would have gone up after 20 years. They're flat 20 years. You could have done something to get those numbers up and you didn't. So I kind of have to grade that as an F.
Well, if you look at well-being, if you look at the mental health, what people did was they said, well, we got to do something. So what did they do? They gave people yoga classes. They gave them headspace meditation apps. was all very superficial, right? Like, so we're going to create a toxic workplace or an uncomfortable workplace for you. And we're going to work you to death. But at end of the day, guess what? You get to go to yoga class and have a free meditation app. And that isn't going to solve it.
Alexis Zahner (09:58.414)
Yeah.
MCC (09:58.862)
And by the way, that's wellness. That's not well-being. So the difference between wellness and well-being is really comprehensively, how do you assess your life? How do you feel? And because we spend so much time at work, it really has so much to do with your day-to-day work experience. Do I have a caring boss? Do I have opportunities to grow? Are people actually coaching me, teaching me, developing?
Alexis Zahner (10:09.972)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:19.813)
Mm.
MCC (10:25.198)
Could I grow in this company and have more responsibility in the event that I want that? Right. Am I appreciated? Am I valued for who I am? Do I have a feeling of belonging here? Like, do I feel like the people that are on my team care about me? Does my boss care about me? All of that is comprehensively well-being. So the big picture here, and this is why, Alexis, I'm very happy you asked the question, is because what we're really getting here at is
managerial responsibility, like how we lead people, how we manage people, how we treat them day to day is really the greatest driver of how people assess their well-being. Now, companies have cultures and all that kind of stuff, but it's really how a manager impacts people. So I think that when we focus on well-being, you're actually going to force managers to improve because you're assessing them more regularly.
Alexis Zahner (11:06.001)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (11:14.48)
Yeah.
MCC (11:21.55)
You're getting the results out and you're sharing them so that you can see your results and peer results. And if you're in the red all the time, you know, somebody is going to come and grab you by the ear and they're going to go, you're not going to be able to manage people here much longer if you don't improve that. So now all of a sudden we've created an environment where everybody has a really good manager. Like I think like, you know, that's what the impact of my book is. Like I have done my work, you know, it's like that's the greatest thing ever is to know that people.
Don't go to work going, God, I hate to go work for that guy or that woman or that person, you know.
Alexis Zahner (11:54.565)
Yeah.
And we've all had that experience. think Mark, I think everyone's had an organization they've worked in where they've had to drag their knuckles to work every day. And there's so many things that I like about what you just said. The first one, and something we speak a lot about at Human Leaders is the personal accountability piece, both for yourself and in leadership. think, you know, when we talk about culture, what we're really talking about is the accumulation of small behaviors every single day that add up to create, you know, the bigger vibe, if you will, of an entire
Sally Clarke (she/her) (11:57.999)
I think it's.
Alexis Zahner (12:27.811)
organization. And we know comprehensively from research that leaders have the most direct impact on their direct employees and their impact and experience of work. So I love that you went there and, and really invite leaders in to take some accountability for the impact they have on others, both positively and obviously negatively. I think we're so often fixed on leadership being the problem, but it's an invitation to assess and reevaluate and change how we work.
And the other thing that I find really powerful about what you just said, and in a world that feels like it's turning faster and faster every day, I think many of us feel like we just can't keep up. We can't keep ourselves feeling healthy. We can't feel like we're on top of our career and meditating and exercising and eating organically and doing all of this stuff. And it's not always our fault. And I appreciate that you mentioned this idea that
work and the systemic way that work is headed and has been headed for the last 50 years is actually a major contributor to our subjective well-being. And that is if we are doing 60 and 70 hour weeks with ungodly amount of pressure on us, telling us to meditate for 30 minutes at the end of the day is just a farce. So thank you so much for illuminating that. Because I do think that, you know, even for folks like Sally and I who work in this space, sometimes we feel like we're on the
hamster wheel of well-being as well and you don't know how to get off it sometimes. So I think it's really important to point out those two things that there is such a big systemic piece here that is making people feel like they can't keep up but in fact it's actually not always their fault and largely not.
MCC (14:11.714)
You know, I mean, it's really interesting you should say this because as I'm listening to you, I'm where I was thinking is that people listening to this who are managers, it's very easy for them to go, I don't have time to be taking care of other people's well-being. All I need is them to get their work done. Like that's like, that's their mindset, right? It's like, don't be imposing this well-being thing on me. They're lucky to get the Headspace app. You know what mean? It's like,
Alexis Zahner (14:28.785)
Totally. Yep.
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (14:37.953)
Yeah. Yeah.
MCC (14:39.778)
There is that kind of so what I would say is that when you help somebody else's well-being, you're actually helping your own. You're seeing people sort of thrive and rebound and recover. And so, but at the end of the day, this is really the premise of my of my first book, which is that if you really truly care about people, their growth, their development, their well-being.
People reciprocate. People instinctively want to reward you for taking care of them that way, for making work not awful. And not just awful, but something where people go, I'm looking forward to going because I'm getting something big out of this. So it's in our leader's best interest to do this. And if they go, I don't have time for it, I'm saying prioritize it because the rewards are just too great.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (15:36.825)
Absolutely agreed there, Mark. And I think also this understanding that wellbeing is not some sort of reward after someone's been exploited and really given their all and then they're given, you know, a nice little pat on the head and, you know, here's a yoga class. But really understanding that wellbeing is this precursor to great work. So it's really seeing it rather than a sort of a reactive response from organizations as a kind of, you know, reward as such, but seeing that when people are well,
MCC (15:44.781)
haha
Sally Clarke (she/her) (16:04.981)
and exactly what you're eliminating that they'll lean in, they'll do better work. And when they feel cared for as well, then that sort of creates, I think a cycle of a healthier culture, healthy individuals as well. But I think it's really important that we sort of from this idea of wellbeing as a nice to have after the fact to something that's actually a precursor to great work and to great workplaces.
MCC (16:31.566)
100%. And it's I'm laughing because you're implying that well, well being is not a perk. Like, you know, it's like, you're lucky to have it. You know, it's like, no, like this is this is what sets people up for optimal performance. Like, so your podcast is all human, right? If we're talking about human beings, what we're saying is, is that by supporting their well being, you're going to get greater performance out of them.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (16:47.523)
Exactly.
MCC (16:59.694)
And isn't that your job as a leader to get performance out of people? So I'm giving you the formula. The formula just happens to be very different than anything we've ever thought it was, right? So we can continue to go, well, whatever. I'm not going to be concerned about it. But the managers that embrace this that say, OK, oh, I actually sounded like an Australian right there. I'm going to embrace this, and I'm going to try it. You're going to see.
Alexis Zahner (17:24.101)
Yeah.
MCC (17:26.316)
I mean, I've managed this way my entire life without ever really associating it with wellbeing. just, I've always cared about people. I've always loved the people that worked for me. I've always grown and developed them and I always had phenomenal results. So I spent a lot of time looking for science to validate what I already knew to be true, not the other way around. I didn't go, wow, that's a surprise. I went looking for validation for this is the way to go.
Alexis Zahner (17:31.621)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (17:48.849)
Mm.
MCC (17:51.872)
And so it's, it's, as Marshall Goldsmith who wrote the forward for the book wrote, he goes, what are you saying? Me is he's asking you to manage in a very different way because it's a far more effective way of leading people and getting people's performance. And like, that's it. That's, that's really what we're talking.
Alexis Zahner (18:09.841)
Now, Mark, I'd love to dive into this in a more practical sense, because again, I think well-being is a word a lot of leaders know, lot of HR leaders know, but we're still not getting right. Something that you talk about in your book and the first tip that you give leaders is to know thyself. And interestingly, we know from the research that 95 % of us think we know thyself, but when it comes to self-awareness, know, only 10, maybe 15 % of us actually have a pretty good, you know, barometer.
on our self-awareness. can you give us some tips? do we start with this?
MCC (18:45.902)
Okay, I hate to say it, but we buffered there for a second, so I didn't get the entire question.
Alexis Zahner (18:52.355)
Okay, I'll repeat it if that's all right.
MCC (18:57.481)
Yes.
Alexis Zahner (18:58.811)
Beautiful.
So Mark, one of the first tips in your book for leaders wanting to improve wellbeing in the workplace is to know thyself. Now, interestingly, we know from the research that 95 % of us think we know thyself. That is, you know, we think we have a higher level of self-awareness, but in fact, the research suggests maybe only about 10 to 15 % of us actually do. So what advice could you give a leader to help us better know thyself so we can improve our employee wellbeing?
MCC (19:29.902)
So, I mean, really the big picture here is that if you don't know yourself, you can't manage other people. You've got to have a deep understanding of who you are. And what I mean by that is like what motivates you, what influenced you, where did you believe systems come from? And I had a friend of mine who's sort of like a super spiritual, you know, like, you know, someone who like almost doesn't come from this planet. She said to me, she goes, Have you ever
Alexis Zahner (19:35.473)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (19:56.227)
haha
MCC (19:58.858)
noticed that most people are operating out of their childhood cells. And it was like, my God, like I've managed people for, you know, for decades and you have situations where people will come in and they will react to something that you did. And you're like, I don't understand this reaction. Like this isn't, this doesn't make any sense to me. And what she was implying to me is so you can be upset with somebody and you go home. I'm really mad at Larry for what he said to me.
Alexis Zahner (20:03.345)
Mmm.
MCC (20:28.714)
And without realizing that what Larry said to you is what your brother said to you 20 years ago that made you mad. And Larry is just triggering this memory. Right. And so in the book, I start with this know thyself. By the way, it's like my number one hashtag on Twitter for the last 12 years because managers that understand what their motivations are will be able to express those motivations and let people understand.
why they operate the way they do, how they operate, how they got where they got to, right? So I'll tell you maybe an illustration. The big part of this is we have blind spots. So like you said, Alexis, I mean, we all sort of pride ourselves. Like, I don't need this lesson. I know myself really well. And there's no evidence that most people know themselves well at all. So I had been given a very, very big promotion.
into a role that I had no right doing except that I was perceived to be a talented leader. In other words, I had no background in the business whatsoever. And the people that were working for me kind of looked like, why is he being given this when he doesn't have the technical knowledge that like takes years to develop? And again, the company said, guy knows how to manage people. That's what we need. So I honestly could see that
I was influencing people dramatically. Like people were like, now I know why they picked you. Like, this is cool. Like, I like working for you and you're doing things that I've wanted you to do. So I'm doing this. I'm feeling very good about myself about a year into the job. And we had this exercise and I write about this in the book, cause I think it's something that everyone should do. Where we had an HR business partner come in and she handed out index cards and she's, you know, like 20 of us in the room.
and all people that I work with, people work for me, work with, and my boss. And the idea was write two things about every person in the room that you think it makes them exceptional. So you get to hear 40 pieces or 38 pieces of really great feedback. Mark's wonderful, Mark's great, Mark's wonderful, Mark's great, Mark's wonderful. And I'm like, this is great. Like, this is wonderful. But it was also really validating, right? Like, I thought I was doing a great job.
MCC (22:54.894)
And by the way, I was with one exception. Then she came back and she said, OK, one more card for everyone. This one is if there's one thing you think they could do better if they knew what it was, what would you tell them? And so she starts reading the cards and routinely people are like, at times, Mark can be very sarcastic and it hurts us and he's limiting his effectiveness as a leader. And I was like, I had no idea.
I mean, I absolutely I know. And it hurt me because I've always wanted people to feel good around me. Well, people started telling me you did it this time and this is how it hurt me. And I immediately realized my father was a very sarcastic, hurtful person, and I picked it up without realizing it. So have we not done that exercise? I don't think I ever would have realized that I had this great limitation. So this is the importance of know myself.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:38.758)
It's glitched, Mark. We can't hear you at the moment.
Alexis Zahner (23:43.185)
I hope he doesn't drop out.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:44.805)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:53.393)
It's such an awesome story.
Alexis Zahner (23:56.185)
Yeah, I had a feeling it was going to do that. That's okay. It creates another file for him that I just piece them together. Tell you what though, it's like the one thing with Riverside, it's the editing is so simple when it's just a cut and dry file. The second this starts happening, fuck me, is it a drama to edit? So annoying.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:13.012)
Hmm. Damn it. And usually like the US is where everything just works and we're the ones like mine 75 % uploaded, yours is 51%. Like it's not as Australian bandwidth, but for some reason he's just, it's so weird and so frustrating.
Alexis Zahner (24:20.657)
Hmm.
Mm.
Weirdo.
Might just be like a busy time on his network, like if he lives in an apartment building or near lots of people sometimes it's just like, cause it's lunchtime there.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:37.443)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, the States just for me, it's always been the experience is always just like, you know, weird.
Alexis Zahner (24:44.112)
Yeah.
Cough cough
I I don't sound too bad. I feel like I'm running like a whiskey voice right now. This is what I used to sound like after a big night.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:51.76)
No, you sound great.
So great.
Alexis Zahner (25:00.133)
Mm. Damn.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:03.576)
Yeah, we're probably, oh yeah, no, we don't have too many questions. I was just thinking.
once he finishes the chat, the anecdote, then I will drop in with question five and we've only got a couple to go. So we should be able to finish out at about 35 max, which is good.
Alexis Zahner (25:20.433)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:27.875)
He's such a great guy. It's so frustrating when these tech things just kind of get in the way. Because I can't see him clearly most of the time as well, which means that you sort of...
Alexis Zahner (25:37.625)
Yeah, it feels like you can't have the kind of level of human interaction that makes the conversation rich. Although like when I, when you play it back, the localized video will be high quality. It's just for us in the moment, it makes it really hard. You kind of speaking to like a disembodied voice. It's a weird thing. Yeah. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:47.717)
Yeah, yeah, of course. Exactly. Yeah, it is.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:54.923)
He's staring at the little green light.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:03.843)
Yeah, super frustrating.
Alexis Zahner (26:06.065)
Hopefully he just does like a little disconnect reconnect. I mean, if his, if his internet's fully just dropping out, that's definitely like a network qualm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:18.009)
Yeah.
MCC (26:18.439)
I'm sorry that was awful just
Alexis Zahner (26:19.845)
There we go.
MCC (26:23.691)
I'm not sure what happened there, but can you slice these videos together and stuff? Can you edit these? Okay. You want to ask that question again about?
Alexis Zahner (26:24.209)
Hello.
Alexis Zahner (26:29.455)
We can. Yeah, we definitely can. Yeah, we can.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:34.925)
No. Yeah, sorry about that,
MCC (26:38.903)
It's OK.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:39.973)
I think if possible, what would probably be great is if you're comfortable to of pick up the story around when perhaps when the next round of cards were brought in around something, some feedback that you would give everyone in the room.
Alexis Zahner (26:55.683)
Yeah, that's where we cut out is that when you started talking about the one piece of the sarcasm piece. Yep.
MCC (27:02.423)
All right, so I'm just going to start all over with that piece. Good. Okay, all right. So I'll give you an illustration of an experience that I had. So I had been promoted into a position that from a leadership standpoint, everybody thought I was capable of, but I had none of the technical expertise. It was a very technical business. Lots of years of knowledge that I didn't have.
Alexis Zahner (27:06.753)
Yeah, perfect.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:06.811)
Great.
MCC (27:29.879)
And so people kind of looked at me very cynically, like, why is he getting this big, big job? But as I started to manage people and spend time with them, people came to see very quickly why I got the job. And they were like delighted. They were like, they made the right choice. Like, he's good for us. Like, he's going to help us. And I did. So after a course of a year, feeling this resistance and then feeling people go, no, you're cool and I'm cool with you. I was feeling very good about myself.
So we did this exercise where we brought in an HR business partner and they were like, I forget how many people that were in there. I had it in the book, but we'll say like 20 people in the room, me and 19 other people. And so the HR business partner handed out two index cards and said, for every person in the room, write something that you think makes them exceptional.
So what they do, the HR business partner gathers them all and then reads them all. So you're hearing 38 pieces of great information. Well, who's not going to go, you know, this go on, you know, like this is pretty great. Right. You know. And but it was validating for me because I had a stress, you know, I didn't like these people didn't like me and didn't know why I was getting the job. And so now all of sudden they're on my side and I'm feeling like, OK, this is going to be my coronation. And it was except.
When we got done, she handed out another index card, one, and she said, now write one thing you think this person would benefit from knowing that currently limits their performance. So she read the cards about me and it was like, they they were saying that I was sarcastic. And I instantly realized that I had picked this up from my father, who is brutally sarcastic, very mean spirited person. And I heard it.
through my entire childhood. And I think I just internalized it and picked it up. So I instantly wanted to stop it, but I was mortified. But I was also realizing if I hadn't gone through this exercise, I never would have known. And so here I am looking for a parade, thinking I've done this great job and I've got this fatal flaw in the how I'm leading. So this is why knowing myself is so important, getting people to help identify where you're strong.
MCC (29:47.391)
what you need to work on and then making a real sincere commitment to improving the areas where you're living.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (29:55.505)
I love how you've explained that Mark in this kind of almost for me, this kind of multifaceted process, because in part it's about knowing thyself as in doing the work in ourselves to really understand who we are. This is something that I only did after I went through a really sort of catastrophic burnout as a corporate finance lawyer and I collapsed at an airport. And it was only in my early thirties that I, the first time started to do that investigative work of who I am, what are my core values, what are my drivers.
How do I want my life to look and feel this kind of really explicit exploration of who I am as a unique individual only occurred at that point. And I think it's also so there's that sort of, you know, us driving that process, but it's also so important to get that feedback from those with whom we work and who are experiencing us and our leadership. Because it's that that feedback that you got no doubt really shifted your ability to rein in the sarcasm.
and to elevate your leadership sort of even to a different level altogether. And I think it's that sort of being able to drive a lot of that insight and exploration for ourselves, but also then opening up to others, taking on feedback, learning and continuing that growth as we evolve as leaders. And I think it's kind of, it's not a one and done, right? It's something that we can continue to do.
MCC (31:15.839)
It's not a one and done and you know, it's also painful. So this was sort of imposed on me, you know, it's like, Hey, we're having a meeting tomorrow and HR is going to be there and they don't tell you and then you come in and you learn and then you just experience it. And so for me, you know, I spent a lot of time apologizing and actually explaining how I learned it and why I did it and why I won't do it anymore. And I kind of cleaned that behavior. But, you know, you were, you were saying Sally that
Sally Clarke (she/her) (31:36.557)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
MCC (31:43.927)
you know, asking people for feedback. Well, the reason that this doesn't happen very often is because we don't want to hear bad news. Like we just simply don't. Right. And the other thing is that people don't want to give it to us. So if I, if you work for me, Sally and I say, Sally, you know, do me a favor and I'm trying to be a better leader. And I would really appreciate it if you could tell me two things you think I do really well. So you work for me and you're like,
OK, you're the greatest, Mark. You're like you are a god. Like you are fantastic. I love working for you. I love working for you. love working for you. OK, anything else? Nope. You're wonderful. You're incredible. You're the best ever boss I've ever had. So I go, all right. So now do me a favor. Like I said, I'm trying to become a better manager. Tell me one thing that you think I can do better. So the person goes, you would go, no, I told you you're a god. You're wonderful. You're the greatest ever. I got nothing.
I got nothing. Nothing, right? And so our instinct is to go, OK, great. Thank you. But that misses the whole plot because that person, you in this scenario, doesn't want to hurt my feelings. But you got something to say. So I say, Sally, you gave me two.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (32:43.322)
No notes.
MCC (33:04.385)
great pieces. Actually, you told me I was unbelievable and wonderful. So you gave me more than I ever could have imagined. I'm sure you have just one thing you think I could do better. And then the dagger comes out. Yeah, I do. You never do this or you say this or you, you know, I never got this. like, you're like hurt, you know, like, my God, I didn't see that coming. Like, you know, and particularly if you're doing it with a bunch of people, nobody wants that experience. Nobody wants to feel that. Right.
But if you don't, you won't grow. And if you do, it's like transcendence. So, you know, I've done it so many times and I, you know, I always, you know, I'm kidding when you say, you know, take a shot of whiskey before you ask the question, because you're going to get something that's going to hurt you. But it's worth it. And they're so grateful because they got it off their, you know, they got it out of their mind. It's been something they've been aware of for a long time. So,
Do you want to just continue to pretend like they don't see your weaknesses or learn what the weaknesses are from their point of view and get.
Alexis Zahner (34:07.791)
It's such an important point, Mark. I think so often as leaders, we don't want to lean into the uncomfortability of, of illuminating some of those downsides of us. And certainly our ego is very resistant to that. And I had a similar experience to you in one of my first leadership positions at Patagonia when I was living in Canada, where I've got some really startling feedback when people told me that I was intimidating and I was baffled because I really thought I'd create
the space where people could come to me and could and raise things but I didn't realize that there was sort of this incongruence between what I said and just how I delivered the message and so just that tiny tidbit of feedback while at the time I was really quite rattled by it and it took some time for me to reconcile how I was being received versus how I felt myself to be but
It's drastically changed my ability to show up in a way that does align internally with how I want to be. And I think it's the greatest gift because I want to be received as a warm and kind and caring leader. So if people hadn't told me that I would have spent, you know, the next 20, 30 years thinking I was being a warm, kind and caring leader when in actuality I was being intimidating. Totally. Yeah.
MCC (35:21.697)
Yep. they're judging you because of it. Right. Like, can I go in and ask Affleck a question? probably not. I'm going to save that one. Right. So you lose that intimacy. You lose that trust. yeah. Thank those people there. You know, be grateful to the people that give you that feedback because they're transforming you, you know, if you want to be.
Alexis Zahner (35:28.505)
Yep. Yeah. Yep.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:31.759)
Yeah. Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (35:35.035)
Totally.
Alexis Zahner (35:39.643)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (35:44.753)
And your second tip, Mark, in the book, and it's really such a beautiful exploration and very practical exploration for leaders of how to build these capabilities that help us really create an environment of wellbeing. Second tip I love, it's to drop a pin, but not on a Google map. Can you tell us what you mean by dropping a pin?
MCC (36:05.835)
Well, I'm really what I'm really talking about is this idea that knowing myself has to be a lot deeper than just the exercise that we did that we just talked about. Right. And asking people and really assessing that you have to kind of you have to have an understanding of.
Alexis Zahner (36:18.819)
Yeah.
MCC (36:31.767)
Kind of what you were saying, Sally, in the sense that I've just crashed and burned, right? Now I'm like, OK, I need to recover. I start all over. I have to go, who am I? What's important to me? What are my values? What do I stand for? How do I want people to see me? And you did that exercise after crashing and burning, which is what most people do. And what I'm saying is do it before you crash and burn, right?
Alexis Zahner (36:39.409)
Hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:59.953)
Yep.
Alexis Zahner (37:00.241)
Hmm.
MCC (37:01.451)
Do it before you crash and burn. But more importantly, it's...
When you develop your values, when you identify what those values are, you can create a credo, which credo means I believe. And so I had had a gentleman on my podcast a few years ago named Eric Potterat, and he created the, I don't know if you're familiar with the Navy SEALs, but they're like the most elite, you know, Navy soldiers and in the water and diving out of planes and, but they're
the training that they get is brutal and most of the people fail, like, you know, fail like horribly. And so the people that make it through are super studs, super, super successful people. And what he's imposed upon them was that they need to know what their values are. So he said, put it together in 10 words. And you can, like he said, Alexis, you were saying earlier, like it's an ongoing process, but it's like, sit down and start thinking about who am I? What do I stand for?
because he said that once you've defined your credo, once you've defined what your values are, you don't have to make tough decisions because the decision is already made for you. And I absolutely love that. But the other thing is, is that when you have a credo and you can you share that with the people that work for you and they know what's important to you, A, you're not going to hire anybody that's not aligned to those values. Right. Why would you hire somebody that's misaligned to what you believe in? You wouldn't. So you want to make sure that
people on your team feel similarly, not necessarily identified, you know, identically, but you're going to make all of your behaviors and decisions and basically your way of life driven by this list of your 10 values. And I just think if people could really understand what they stand for, then not only will people understand who they are, but it just enables
MCC (39:03.295)
you to operate in the world in the clearest possible way. There's just if if you can be the embodiment of those 10 words, then. People will be able to relate to you on those 10 words, whereas most of the time we're just guessing where does he or she stand on this? What would she think? What would he think? How would he act? So if you've defined this.
Alexis Zahner (39:26.757)
Mmm. Yep.
MCC (39:31.937)
People can operate without ever having to come to you. They already know. So they can make decisions independently. They can make decisions in your best interest because you've made yourself that clear.
Alexis Zahner (39:37.295)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (39:46.469)
That's such a powerful note, Mark. I think, you know, as someone who's been both an employee and a leader, what I also like about that is it creates a level of consistency that we can expect from one another as well. And I think people like to have that uncertainty reduced, you know, how will my leader react? What are they going to feel about this? But if we know the kind of person that we are working for, then it reduces that uncertainty, as you've mentioned, which I think is super powerful.
Now, the next thing you talk about, Mark, is this idea of loosening your grip as a leader. And you've mentioned in the book that this is actually a really powerful piece of the employee wellbeing part of it as well. So help us understand what do you mean by loosening your grip? And in a practical sense, how might leaders go about doing that?
MCC (40:33.309)
you know, particularly for first time leaders, people that are getting promoting into managers, we sort of have this belief system that my job is to find everything that's wrong and fix it as opposed to identifying the things that are going well and reinforce it. Right. But we also think that if I don't, if I'm not in control here, then what am I good for? Like, you know, I mean, it's like allowing people freedom to do their work is the antithesis of.
why I'm a manager, right? It's like, well, what influence did you have on those people when they were working independently? Well, nothing. Well, then what do we need you for? Like, that's the mentality. And so what is an interesting study that I read about, about at least a decade ago, and it's called the Whitehall study. And Whitehall in Great Britain is there, you know, the house of all their government. And really, the only difference between people is the level that they're at. So typical British government.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (41:13.679)
Mm.
MCC (41:32.599)
You know, you have levels and that's where your pay grade is. Right. And so what they was able to do, his name is Sir Michael Marmot. He was named. He was knighted for this study and it's over 40 years and he's still doing it. He's still alive. I he's in his mid eighties. And basically what he was able to prove was the opposite of what we might assume. So if you think about all the government workers, the senior people.
you know, at the very top and all the responsibility that they have for managing all the people at the bottom and all the all the the stress that comes with that, that the people who would have the most stress in their life and as evidenced by heart issues, strokes, heart attacks, premature death, right? All those kinds of things. What they found was it wasn't the people at the top. It was the people at the bottom. And the reason is, is that those people had no control.
So all three of us, we get to decide when we go to work in the morning, what time we take a break, right? When we go to the bathroom, when we get lunch, right? How long we take from lunch. I mean, we have those, all that discretion because we're all like independent and we get to choose, right? So do this people at the top of the hierarchy, the people at the bottom, need to be here by eight o'clock and at 8.15, this needs to be done at 8.45 and this needs to be done. You need to check in by nine. It's
Don't take a break. You're not worthy of a break until 10, 15. So if you got to go to the bathroom, you got to hold it. mean, all that kind of stuff. Right. So it may not be quite as bad as the way I'm describing it, but the implication is very clear that the more control people have, the greater their wellbeing. And so if that's the case, then what we should be doing is giving people clear goals by clear goals. It's like, this is what I expect from you. This is what I'm going to review you. This is what your deliverables look like. So like,
Clear is the operant word, right? And this is the piece that I think is the hardest for people, is this idea that you're going to have to learn to trust people. So if you tell people what the job is and you train them intensively and you know in your heart of hearts they can do the job, then let them do the job. Right? Let them do the job and let them go to their colleagues if they need help, which is another part of the book, right?
Sally Clarke (she/her) (43:37.051)
Yeah.
MCC (43:57.292)
having teammates that will help you and were motivated to help you. But this is a really big thing because if you can give people flexibility on how work gets done and even to the extent of when it gets done, you know, like, you know, can you give people remote? Can you allow people to come in later if they've got a child that they want to take to school, giving them that kind of control enables well-being in a really, really serious, obviously the guy was knighted for what I'm sharing with you. So it's important data and important information. And then
The other piece of this is that you have to meet with people weekly and see how they're doing. Check in with them. So it's not like you're giving people full autonomy and you give them a goal and you go, by the end of the month, I need you to get this. And then you bring them in at the end of the month and they go, how'd you do? Well, I didn't get it done. Well, now I'm in trouble as a leader. So that's silly, right? I'm not going to take that risk. I want to give people freedom and autonomy, but I also need to do my job. So if.
you guys work for me, I'm going to schedule weekly calls and I'm going to start off by just asking how you're doing as a human being. Cause that's not only just the theme of your podcast, but that's the thing to do. Like I don't want to talk about work yet. Just tell me how you're doing and then go, Hey, quick update. How are you doing on the project? You need any help? Anything, anything I can do to help you? Are we tracking that kind of a thing and put all that together and you can give people freedom.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (45:20.145)
You've touched on so many important points, Mark. I feel like we could have a of a conversation that lasts for days because there's so much to unpack there in terms of, you know, the trust aspect leading from the heart, putting the human at the center of things and that kind of balance between sort of freedom and flexibility, but also feeling supported and that people have the access to the resources and insights that they need to be able to do their job well. It's a really powerful and very practical approach that leaders can take and implement.
right now. Now, it also segues, I think, nicely into our final question, which is around your final tip. And this really resonated for us. And it doesn't surprise us, of course, because of your work in leading from the heart. And the tip is to care about and even love your people. We're super curious to hear from you. Why does love matter at work? And if you can, to sort of finish us off, share an example with where you've seen the impact of love in the workplace.
MCC (46:19.543)
So, you know, it's a very big question and I'm like, there's a lot of ways that I could answer this. But I'll start off by saying that I grew up, my mom died when I was very young and my father raised me. And for whatever reason, he was a very successful person, but he was not a successful father. And he went out of his way to really cripple me in my self-esteem, self-belief.
He belittled me, and this is where the sarcasm came from. But he was really direct about it. There was no ambiguity about his belief and his assessment of me that I would never amount to anything. And so I grew up with that, right? And then he kicked me out of the house, right, as I graduated from high school with no money and no support. And so I had a very difficult life up until the time I graduated from college. And I started managing people. And I think I realized that that
point that I was at a tremendous disadvantage compared to people that I was graduating from college with. They had places to go home on the holidays and they had people checking in and, was your class and what did you get on your paper and how well did the exam go and, it didn't go well, that's okay, you're smart, you're gonna rebound, don't worry. I didn't have any of that. I didn't have anybody make me feel safe. I felt very vulnerable for a very long time.
And so as I started to manage people, I unconsciously gave people everything that I always wanted, all the support that I never got. And I did it unconsciously for a very long time, like the first 15 years of my career, before somebody pointed out to me that I manage people very, very differently. And I realized, my God, like I did this in response to this upbringing that I had. But the reason that I never really looked at it was because I got phenomenal results from people.
And I kept getting promoted, like promoted in ways like I described to you, where I'm like, do they know what they're doing? Like, are they like, are they seeing something that I'm not seeing? Because I think you're crazy to be giving me these jobs. But I always did well in them. And the reason I did well in them was because I cared deeply about my people. I made them feel safe. They never had any question of how they stood with me. They were doing great. I didn't have any problem telling them.
MCC (48:37.463)
I love that you're working here. I'm so glad I hired you. You're the best hire I've ever made. Like whatever, you're a phenomenal employee. You know, we think people get soft around the middle and you know, they'll take advantage of you. And that just simply wasn't my experience. so fast forward the clincher here. So really what I did was I loved people, right? I mean, that's what people were feeling.
And every human being on the planet needs it, even though we think, oh, we don't need that shit at work. Like, you know, keep that out of there. Like that's we don't need to worry about that. Like get the they get it from their spouse or their children, but ain't getting it from me. Like, I'm not worried about that. Well, what I demonstrated in the whole premise of the first book, Leap from the Heart, which is if you care about people, they feel it and they will reciprocate. And that's what you want. You want people to commit, commit to them. So.
I would, write for Fast Company Magazine and I was doing it. I was talking to a woman named Barbara Fredrickson and she is a star, one of the star positive psychology. She's actually a psychology professor at university, North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And I was talking to her about something entirely different that was massively validating for my thesis. Like, like, my God, like I am, I'm like this validation is like.
Everything I always wanted, always knew was true, but now I'm getting it from somebody who's researched it. So I could have ended it there. And I got greedy and I just said, hey, before we go, is there any other thing that's stunning thing that you have to tell me that will blow my mind? And so the original thing that she told me was that human beings thrive on positive emotions, which is what I learned.
I'm appreciating people, telling them how much I value them, growing them, teaching them, demonstrating that I'm making, you know, that I think about them, that I want the best for them. People could feel that. Right. So I did that. So I was giving people a high ratio of positive emotions. And what she was saying to me was, guess what? You, human beings are hardwired to thrive on positive emotions. So what you were doing
MCC (51:01.173)
was brilliant, whether you realized it or not. Like you're, setting people up for the best possible performance, which is why every team you ever had was phenomenal. Every team you ever had got you promoted. Right. And so I'm like, wow, like this is mind blowing. So now I go to the greedy question and she goes, okay, I got one for you. She goes, when we think about positive emotions, so you think about positive.
emotions like interest, appreciation, joy, awe, love, right? There's a whole list of them, but that's some of them, right? So she said what we have found and by we she meant her, her research. So what we found is that any positive emotion is an experience of love. Awe is love, joy is love, interest of, appreciation is love. Whether we digest that, internalize it or not.
When we're seeing a beautiful sunset or we're in Yosemite or somebody says to us, I just need you to know how valued you are here and what a contribution you make. That's an expression of love. So. She didn't say you got to go up to people and go, I love you, Sally. I love you, Lexus. I love you, Sally. I love you. It's you just demonstrated to them by giving them the experience of positive emotions.
So for seven years, I've ended every single one of my podcasts saying, love your people. it's not like, I love you, man. It's not insincere. And it's not the, come here, I got to give you a hug kind of a thing because I love you. It's just show them. So it's much more subtle than it is just saying to people, I love you.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (52:48.687)
So powerful, Mark. I think that's such a beautiful way for us to also round out our conversation with you. There's so many different ways that we can express it. And I think often people have this idea that love doesn't belong at work, but I think really love belongs everywhere that humans are. So we thank you so much for sharing your time, your wisdom, your love with us today at We Are Human Leaders. Thanks for being with us.
MCC (53:14.807)
Thank you. It was a lovely time, wonderful time. Nice meeting you both, Sally and Alexis.
