Why Authenticity is BS with Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic
Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic
Tomas is the Chief Innovation Officer at ManpowerGroup, Professor of Business Psychology at University College London and Columbia University, co-founder of deepersignals.com and an associate at Harvard’s Entrepreneurial Finance Lab. He is the author of 12 books, including Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders? (and How to Fix It), upon which his popular TED talk was based. His latest book is Don’t Be Yourself: Why Authenticity is Overrated and What to Do Instead.
Authenticity is a leadership buzzword. Not only has it lost its meaning, the concept has become a personal-growth bypass. So, rather than chasing authenticity, what should we focus on instead?
In this thought-provoking We Are Human Leaders conversation, author and organizational psychologist Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic shares insights from his latest book: Don't Be Yourself: Why Authenticity Is Overrated (and What to Do Instead).
We discuss the complexities of authenticity in leadership, emphasizing that the common advice to 'just be yourself' can be misleading.
Plus, Tomas explores the psychological underpinnings of self-perception, the importance of emotional intelligence for leaders at all levels, and the 4 most common traps associated with pursuing authenticity.
This inspiring discussion highlights the need for all of us as leaders to be aware of our impact on others and to cultivate a balance between self-awareness and pro-social behavior. And, the conversation calls for a redefinition of authenticity that includes the potential for growth and change. It’ll truly shift your think on what it means to be authentic – and how to pursue Self-Leadership instead.
What You'll Learn:
How authenticity is often misinterpreted in leadership contexts.
Why self-deception is prevalent among leaders, affecting their effectiveness.
The science behind how caring about how we impact others is crucial for effective leadership.
Why the mantra 'always be true to yourself' can be a trap.
How ignoring others' perceptions can lead to ineffective leadership.
The reasons why emotional intelligence is essential for navigating interpersonal dynamics.
That self-knowledge is a continuous journey, not a destination.
Why integrating feedback from others is vital for personal growth.
How leaders should sculpt their future selves rather than just amplify their current personas.
That authenticity should encompass all possible selves, allowing for growth and evolution.
Learn more about Dr. Tomas
Learn more about the work of Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic including his latest book right here.
Prefer to watch the conversation? See it on YouTube here:
Full Episode Transcript
Chapters:
00:00 The Complexity of Authenticity
05:07 The Performative Nature of Self
08:00 The Nuances of Leadership and Authenticity
10:35 The Dangers of Self-Deception
13:32 The Authenticity Traps in Leadership
15:42 The Impact of Others' Perceptions
18:23 Navigating the Balance of Self and Others
23:00 Navigating Cultural Sensitivity and Conflict Avoidance
24:22 The Balance of Self-Awareness and Leadership
27:27 Emotional Intelligence: A Counterpoint to Authenticity
29:15 The Tyranny of the Self in Modern Society
34:22 Cultural Values: Individualism vs. Collectivism
38:00 Authenticity: Self-Knowledge vs. Community Engagement
44:50 The Future of Authenticity in Leadership
46:25 Introduction to Human Leadership
46:34 Exploring the Essence of Human Leadership
Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Tomas. It's a delight to have you with us today. We're so excited for this conversation. And, you know, authenticity is a big word for both of us and for all of our listeners. It's also something that we've heard sort of reverberating around the leadership space for many years now. And the advice to just be yourself, it's ubiquitous, but it's also quite confusing. We'd love to hear your take on this. Why is telling someone, hey, just be yourself.
actually not the most helpful of advice.
Tomas (00:36.291)
Well, first, thank you for the invitation to have this conversation with you. It's a great pleasure to be here. And let's start with, you know, maybe the most obvious yet often overlooked point regarding the logical flaws underpinning the notion of authenticity, which is like, how could you possibly not be yourself? I mean, even if you try to be somebody else, everything you do is part of who you are, all your behaviors, your thoughts, whatever. So, you know,
It's not very helpful to have a prompt or a behavioral hack or nudge, if you like, that cannot be followed, but it can also not be disobeyed, right, to begin with. Then I think there is the notion that, you know, if there is one thing that behavioral science has consistently shown us and replicated over the past four to five decades,
is that it is actually very, very hard to understand who you truly are deep down. So if we measure whether somebody is being authentic or the degree to which somebody is being authentic according to their own parameters or benchmark, well, know, all we know is that people differ in their tendency and ability to bullshit themselves, but we all do.
We all do. mean, if our definition of who we truly are deep down is the hero in our own mind or the version of ourselves that we think is genuine, well, that's not really going to cut it. And if you want to measure whether you're being authentic by some external parameters, you know, I'm trained as a Freudian psychoanalyst and I learned very early in my life that good luck if you want to go into therapy for 10 or 15 years.
I mean, your best outcome there is to find out that you're neurotic, if not, you're psychotic. If you're neurotic, you learn to understand that there is no such thing such as the real you, and you have to learn to embrace the uncertainty and ambivalence that actually underpins your character. And if you're psychotic, then, well, you you might be truly convinced that you are Napoleon or Elon Musk or Nap-on-Elon, as historian Nile Ferguson calls him.
Alexis Zahner (02:55.34)
Yeah.
Tomas (02:59.363)
But that's not necessarily a single source of true or an objective source of your identity. I think fundamentally HR professionals should try to not open this kind of worm. And if they do, then it's tangible, concrete, and workable definitions of what we mean when we say that people should be authentic. And really what we actually mean is that
Alexis Zahner (03:06.481)
Hmm
Alexis Zahner (03:15.59)
Mmm.
Tomas (03:28.195)
They should be trustworthy and they should not come across as a fraud and they should elicit a certain degree of genuineness while also being effective and pro-social. And people who do this, they spend a lot of time working on the reputation. They're definitely not their unfiltered, uncensored or uninhibited self.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (03:39.598)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (03:48.027)
Hmm.
Alexis Zahner (03:55.27)
Thomas, a question slightly nerdy on the research side of this here. It sounds to me a little bit like your explanation of this draws on some of Irving Goffman's work around the presentation of self as well. How does that kind of interact with this idea of authentic being that we're always in some way or another being performative to an extent?
Tomas (04:16.747)
Yeah, and if our listeners haven't read the marvelous work by Erwin Goffman, the father of sociology, who wrote many books on the presentation of self in everyday life, and he essentially coined this idea of behavior as always existing in a theater, in a sort of performative instance. In fact, even when nobody's watching you,
Alexis Zahner (04:39.728)
Mm.
Tomas (04:45.399)
you're still dependent and influenced by other people. So again, you know, if we take one of the most universal and commonly accepted mantras underlying the definition of authenticity or the concept of authenticity, which is that, you know, you shouldn't worry about what people think of you or you should just ignore what other people tell you. Well, it is impossible to do so, right? I mean, well, let alone
if you want to disobey that statement, you're already influenced by that statement. So, you it's like you cannot follow it or disobey it. But fundamentally, all of our values or beliefs, our ideas are inculcated to us or transmitted to us by early socialization. So whether it's parenting or significant others, schools, etc.
Alexis Zahner (05:38.992)
Mm-hmm.
Tomas (05:40.655)
You know, you do have these freakishly unusual and anomalous examples of like feral children. In the book, I talk about, I don't know if you've seen the wolf pack, but it's a great example of that, right? Modern examples. So seven or eight siblings that grew up in a council flat or social housing estate in the East Village, and they're not allowed to leave. So they never actually set foot in the streets of New York, but still.
all of their knowledge about life comes from watching movies. Luckily, their dad, is crazy, really literally crazy and a psychopath, at least exposes them to nice movies. you know, they think the world is a Tarantino film and they learn to rehearse various scenes of Pulp Fiction. you know, in a way, it's not so different from what you find outside in the real world. But you cannot be not influenced by other people. you know, so I think, you know,
Alexis Zahner (06:13.586)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (06:24.749)
Mm-hmm.
Alexis Zahner (06:36.602)
Hmm.
Tomas (06:39.161)
There are definitely degrees of caring and degrees of awareness as to how our behavior impact others. But all the research shows that the leaders who are most effective, the managers who are most competent, the workers who are better team players and better colleagues, they don't go around the office or Zoom and Teams meeting.
neglecting or disregarding how they impact other people. Instead, they pay great deal of attention to how their words and actions impact others and that doesn't make them insecure, that actually makes them mature human beings.
Alexis Zahner (07:09.97)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (07:22.032)
Mmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (07:23.072)
Amazing Thomas. And what I'm hearing here is this kind of delineation between what I think authenticity has been characterized as almost this like, just take the foot off the gas pedal, stop trying, just be yourself. Don't, don't listen to anything. And really kind of as almost a lazy approach to leadership and, you know, workplace interactions to actually what is quite an involved process of self-awareness and self-improvement that actually drives great leadership outcomes.
Is that sort of an accurate depiction?
Tomas (07:54.947)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, it's unfortunate that any concept that has some impact and becomes a popular concept, not just in management sciences and HR, but in general in the world, always becomes diluted and distorted and watered down to the point that it misses or it loses its potential benefit. It's the same with authenticity. I think if we understand that
Alexis Zahner (08:10.29)
Mm.
Tomas (08:22.519)
What I'm arguing about is a more nuanced approach and that, just like being pathologically insecure and overly dependent on what other people think of you is bad. And, you know, nobody wants to be in that situation. And it's certainly we have, we have lots of examples, whether it's
imposter syndrome or just general social anxiety or insecurity, even like the case of vulnerable or neurotic narcissism. So people with an inflated yet fragile ego who are desperately needy of other people's approval. If you watch, I don't know if there's an Australian version of the office that probably is right, but you can watch that. Okay. They're making one. Right. So the UK and the U S yeah, the UK and the U S ones are very different. They both really depict.
Alexis Zahner (08:56.913)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:04.546)
They're making one actually.
Alexis Zahner (09:06.32)
They are, no, we love the other one too.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:12.526)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (09:12.721)
Yeah.
Tomas (09:14.083)
their respective office cultures really well. But what they have in common is that the main character, Michael Scott in the US version and David Brent in the British one, is an insecure narcissist. So, you know, they think they're great, but actually they don't fully believe their own BS, so they need approval all the time. Of course, they also have sense of humor. And because they're not your boss, there is a cathartic element to watching that. But, you know, in all of these instances,
Alexis Zahner (09:17.286)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (09:26.578)
Yeah.
Tomas (09:40.599)
we see that it's a little bit sad and almost pathetic when people are so reliant on other people's approval and validation that they crave attention and it's not a very free or fun way to experience life. Having said that, I think that most of the problems that we experience in the world, which are leadership problems, are actually caused by the opposite phenomenon.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (09:50.637)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (09:58.683)
Mm.
Tomas (10:09.379)
people who are so entitled and who have so much power, so much status, the privileged elite that actually isn't accountable for anything it does and can truly unleash its unfiltered and uncensored self on others. Elon Musk would be a great example, even if you think he is a genius and he might be, or that he has noble aspirations and professional career goals that could improve
Sally Clarke (she/her) (10:19.79)
Mmm.
Alexis Zahner (10:24.946)
Mmm.
Tomas (10:38.305)
humanity, you know, there is a vision there and at least, you know, he's trying to go to Mars and, you know, kind of give us robots that might help our productivity, et cetera, you know, but does he really need to bully and attack people 24 seven online? Does he really need to, you know, kind of a
Alexis Zahner (11:00.337)
Hmm.
Tomas (11:04.633)
project his anti-social and unfiltered thoughts and opinions to others. If you think that's good because that's freedom of speech, there's a great line by Karl Popper that I use in the book, which is that, you cannot have a tolerant society unless you're intolerant to intolerance. So there cannot be any form of cohesive and pro-social harmonic coexistence between humans.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (11:25.038)
Mm.
Tomas (11:33.847)
unless we all understand where the right to be ourselves ends and our obligation to others begins. And unfortunately, those who are the powerful elite don't give a shit about this. you know, so I think in a nutshell, you know, it will be wiser and we're better off if we spend less time pointing the finger at those who are the out group, those who are diverse and low status individuals.
Alexis Zahner (11:49.308)
Yeah.
Tomas (12:03.341)
for blaming them for not being themselves and more time holding those who are in power accountable for being themselves too much or too often.
Alexis Zahner (12:14.554)
That might be one of the most important things I've heard in a hot minute, Thomas. So thank you for that. And Elon is a contentious issue that Sally and I won't even go into because we do not have enough time to unpack our thoughts on Elon Musk in this podcast. But what I would like to hear.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (12:29.432)
you
Tomas (12:29.775)
You know, but just to say on him, because I think also it's important to understand, to try to understand the good and the bad in people. I think, it was Peter Thiel or...
Alexis Zahner (12:33.446)
Hahaha!
Alexis Zahner (12:41.038)
Hmm.
Tomas (12:52.857)
what's the guy who is everywhere, the journalists, Scott. Anyway, somebody basically talking about Elon Musk, I think presented the most redeeming kind of argument against him, which is that maybe, you know, in the end, he won't be judged by all the bad things he did and does. Petty, small.
vicious attacks on others or you know dark side schemes to ruin some of the positive aspects of but by his achievements right and that's possible look there could be a list of maybe a thousand people who in the balance there's not even positive things to say about them so i think you know
Sally Clarke (she/her) (13:41.805)
Right.
Alexis Zahner (13:42.074)
Hmm.
Tomas (13:43.823)
Yeah, so I think, you know, at least we have to consider both things basically. Scott Galloway was, I think, the one who said this.
Alexis Zahner (13:52.881)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (13:57.892)
Yeah, it's a great point, Thomas. And I'd love to point us back now to your book, because I think it has so much value for leaders to actually understand a little bit more around, you know, that's a great case example of I think what your book illustrates, specifically in the book, you talk about four authenticity traps. Can you tell us what these are and walk us through them with a little more depth? Maybe if we can start with the always be honest with yourself and others authenticity trap.
Tomas (14:27.885)
Yeah, so that's the first trap. as you noted, yeah, I mentioned there are basically, you know, people might not have the same definition. There's an academic approach to it. There's a colloquial or popular business. But, know, generally speaking, we all agree that there are these four mantras around authenticity. And actually, the point I make is that there are traps because if you truly want to wanted to follow them,
Alexis Zahner (14:40.198)
Mm-hmm.
Tomas (14:56.515)
you would actually find yourself either logically conflicted because they're not so easy to follow or indulging or opting for indulging in or opting for behaviors that actually decrease your effectiveness, your adaptability and your interpersonal skills. So the first one is always be true to yourself and others. So if we start with that one,
Alexis Zahner (15:14.31)
Hmm.
Tomas (15:26.455)
You know, well, of course, I think children, even as little as four or five years old, learn to understand that even though their parents told them, always be honest, actually that's not going to work in life, right? They have to learn to master the art of performative white lies and to pretend that they like the cake when they didn't and to pretend that they like their
Alexis Zahner (15:42.598)
Mm-hmm.
Tomas (15:52.847)
Christmas present when they didn't or to pretend that they believe in Santa Claus when in fact they didn't because otherwise they're going to spoil things for everybody else, right? So pro-social lying is really important already when we are children. And of course, you know, there has been in recent years a lot of talk about so-called cultures of radical candor and radical transparency like Bridgewater and Ray Dalio and some degree, you know, a milder version of that is Amazon.
Alexis Zahner (16:15.59)
Mm-hmm.
Tomas (16:21.133)
These are horrible environments to work in. And even Ray Dalio himself says, you know, well, if somebody just had a child and returned to the office and is showing you a picture of their baby, you're not going to say that's a really ugly baby, right? So, so there's always like a case for censoring what you really, really think. And that generally, the case generally has to do with empathy being more important and would actually, you know, persuasively or convincingly
Alexis Zahner (16:33.874)
you
Sally Clarke (she/her) (16:45.934)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (16:47.036)
Yeah.
Tomas (16:50.445)
making an effort to not hurt other people's feelings. Then there is a more metaphysical and philosophical element of that is like, can you truly be honest with others if you're not honest with yourself, right? And this is really, really important to actually flesh out or expand because, know, as you know, I've researched incompetent leadership for a long time and the typical kind of archetype of the incompetent man who becomes a leader actually
Alexis Zahner (16:54.758)
Yeah.
Tomas (17:21.342)
uh, uh, signals the prevalence of self deception in leadership and in the corporate world in organizational life. Right. Uh, if you bullshit yourself about thinking, you know, into thinking that you're amazing when you're not that you're a great, you know, person, leader, salesman, et cetera, uh, you don't even have to bullshit other people. can be honest with others. Um, no, because it's like the best salesman doesn't
Alexis Zahner (17:27.922)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (17:45.884)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (17:46.85)
Mm.
Tomas (17:49.697)
or salesperson doesn't need to lie to their customers because they have lied to themselves about thinking like, this is an amazing product, an amazing tool, et cetera. So that happens as well. And what's interesting here is there's a lot of nuance because on the one hand, yeah, the world would be better off if we all had self-awareness and we own your limitations and that. But actually much of the corporate world is sadly optimized to reward people who have deceived themselves.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (18:17.9)
Mmm.
Tomas (18:17.953)
If you go to a job interview thinking that you're amazing when you're not, you're going to beat the candidates that demonstrate some self-doubt. If you're giving a presentation to a client and you think you're incredible when you're not, you And of course that happens more often if you're a man than if you're a woman. But, you know, we should be careful like preaching honesty when the world actually and society at large is rewarding dishonesty, even with ourselves.
Alexis Zahner (18:23.536)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (18:45.069)
Hmm.
Tomas (18:45.239)
as I before, you know, it's not so easy to truly understand who you really are or whether you're being honest. So I think it's, I take an interpersonal framework to assess, kind of a genuine list and sincerity and honesty, which is like, it's much more helpful, even though it sounds a little bit counterintuitive, but if other people, see you as trustworthy, that means you're behaving in such a way that
Alexis Zahner (18:45.33)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (19:12.432)
Mmm.
Tomas (19:15.097)
There is sufficient closeness between your words and your actions. And there is sufficient reliability and predictability in your behavior. And ultimately, you know, being a great boss is having created a reputation in your team whereby they feel safe. They're not afraid that tomorrow they don't know who they're going to find. And that actually doesn't come as a consequence of
Sally Clarke (she/her) (19:34.19)
Hmm
Alexis Zahner (19:35.195)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (19:38.641)
Yeah.
Tomas (19:42.433)
always being honest with them, it comes as a consequence of caring about them and curating a consistent professional self that may or not resemble the real you.
Alexis Zahner (19:50.588)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (19:55.014)
Hmm. Thomas, to my mind, what you've just said also links directly to another trap that you mentioned in the book, which is
Don't worry about what others think of you. And to sort of rewind for a second here, we have a concept that we speak about human leaders a lot, which we call the intention impact gap. And as you've mentioned, it's kind of this idea, it's the space between how we think we're showing up and the actual impact that others or we're having on others rather. And so can you tell us a little bit more around this trap around actually caring about what others think and how these maybe interrelate?
Tomas (20:30.445)
Yeah. And so I tell a little story, little anecdote in the book, which is a true story. Somebody, you know, who works for me and my team, by the way, they're still not aware of this. So they're going to find out when they read the book that, you not identified, but lovely guy, high performing, high potential leader.
Alexis Zahner (20:43.602)
When the book comes out.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (20:44.331)
Hahaha
Tomas (20:54.061)
genuinely curious and interested in improving his leadership and just a great guy, very, very liked by everybody else, but unfortunately somewhat corrupted or contaminated by mainstream self-help thinking, especially in the US around leadership. And so one day he came to my office wearing this T-shirt that said, just be you, they will adjust.
You know, and he was probably wearing this T-shirt hoping, you know, to talk about not just, you know, his performance at work, but it's then, and I just couldn't help myself, you know, I could not, not be myself. And I said, can we talk about your T-shirt for a minute? Because you realize this is like possibly the most narcissistic item of clothing you, anybody could ever, ever wear. Like if we all, if we all do this, you know,
Alexis Zahner (21:30.993)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (21:44.738)
you
Tomas (21:51.181)
we would be living in a world of like a bunch of self-centered egomaniac and entitled narcissists. And if you are the only person able to wear that t-shirt because the world needs to adjust to you, which by the way, I know isn't true because that's not how he thinks, but it had never occurred to him that there was this strong narcissistic selfish connotation to this, right? Of course, at the other extreme, sometimes when I talk about
Sally Clarke (she/her) (21:52.91)
chaos.
Alexis Zahner (21:57.136)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (22:13.71)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (22:14.278)
Hmm.
Tomas (22:18.349)
this or the research in places like Korea or Japan or even Sweden and Finland, people say, but you know, we hear you and understand you, but we're already so oppressed. You know, in Sweden you have saying such as the nail that sticks out needs to be hammered back in. know, and, you know, people are always so polite and
you know, some degree conformist, but so sensitive to the cultural etiquette that they would never tell you that they disagree with you. And, know, there is a downside to that, of course, which is passive aggressiveness and conflict avoidance. always say conflict avoidant people generate a lot of conflict in the long run, right? But I think both extremes are problematic. And what I'm trying to do in a way is kind of dial down the narcissism and the self-centeredness that has, you know,
Sally Clarke (she/her) (23:00.533)
Yup.
Mm.
Tomas (23:13.113)
kind of a corrupted or contaminated mainstream thinking coming from West Coast US sort of like self help to all the way to Australia. Of course, I think Australia in some ways has the strength of both British and American cultures. You're capable of not taking yourself too seriously and you can be, you know, self deprecating and you understand sarcasm and irony, but you also have
Alexis Zahner (23:34.564)
Mm-hmm.
Tomas (23:42.721)
a kind of healthy and positive American sense of can-do optimism, right? But sometimes you also have the worst of both worlds, right? And it's like not positive enough and not negative enough. But so, know, this mantra fundamentally says, I mean, it will be really, it will be impossible for you to follow this rule that don't worry about what people think of you unless you are autistic or on the spectrum or a feral child, you know?
Alexis Zahner (23:49.98)
Yeah.
Tomas (24:09.839)
So in a way we should disregard it altogether or at the outset because you can follow it. But even if you try to follow it, be careful because we know from 360 degree surveys that the best leaders are those who are aware of the reputation. So they are what does it mean to be self aware? To be self aware actually means to be other aware, to know how other people see you. And it's only when you can incorporate other people's views
Alexis Zahner (24:26.129)
Yeah.
Tomas (24:38.987)
on you into your self-concept that you can actually grow and hope to change them. Even people who were not self-aware in the traditional introspective sense of the word, like Ronald Reagan or Donald Trump, they're very good at understanding how they impact others. Now, they don't always care about that or they don't always care about changing their behaviors in the direction that some people might want.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:41.579)
Hmm
Sally Clarke (she/her) (24:55.693)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (24:56.818)
Yeah.
Tomas (25:02.809)
but they're masters at understanding. Even if you think about that scene, right, where he's shot last year and his first reaction is to stand up and the fist goes up and say, fight, fight, fight. I mean, who on earth would think of doing that in that situation? And again, you know, it's that you don't have to like him to appreciate that he's constantly on stage. He's constantly on stage. So actually the point that I make is that...
Alexis Zahner (25:03.44)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (25:19.986)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:24.689)
Mm.
Tomas (25:28.867)
People, the leaders who seem authentic to us, and I'm talking about not the ones that we like from an ideological standpoint, but the ones that actually are outside our values and our ideological kind of eco chamber or cosmos or realm. We see them as authentic because they behave like method actors. They're constantly in character to the point, you and I think in that sense, you know, Trump is not very different from Obama.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (25:50.83)
Mm.
Tomas (25:58.285)
I'm sure both are very different from their public personas when they get home. We have to ask, you know, we have to ask maybe Michelle and Melania to tell us that. But at the same time, I'm sure they're very difficult. It's very hard to catch them off guard because they're performing all the time. So if you think about that, that's like the opposite of saying, don't worry about what people think of you. They may have stopped worrying.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:15.469)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (26:15.739)
Mmm.
Tomas (26:26.157)
because it's so natural to them that they became their professional self. And, you know, I think sometimes we equate this with being a politician. There is often a thin line between very acute or sophisticated political skills and being a politician, which has a bad reputation. But actually, you are going to be more successful in your career as a leader and as an organizational citizen or employee. If you're closer to that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (26:30.53)
Right.
Alexis Zahner (26:31.062)
Hmm.
Tomas (26:55.343)
than if you just say anything that crosses your mind to anybody and you don't give a shit about what people think of you, for sure, right? I would say, know, if Elon Musk is your role model or Steve Jobs or Donald Trump or whoever that is, well, good luck going through the first stage of your interviews if you're hoping to be employed by somebody. There's a reason why a lot of these people had to work for themselves and weren't able to sustain a job when they had a boss.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (27:22.894)
So many interesting and valuable points there, Thomas. And I think you frequently refer in the book to the importance of emotional intelligence, almost as a counterpoint to, I think, this narrative of authenticity. I wonder if in some ways, think historically there was probably a time where people really did feel like they'd lived their lives according to other people's values. they'd kind of, we've almost potentially swung that pendulum so far back in the opposite direction of now I have to be
I have to be so attuned to myself and so incredibly authentic as a counterpoint to having, you know, perhaps lived, made decisions that weren't, didn't feel authentic to me. And I wonder if there's perhaps there's a healthy way that we can find through improving our emotional intelligence to not living a life according to someone else's values and not being so, you know, deeply narcissistic that we're actually in a sort of destructive space. How can we use EQ to...
tone into a really human-centered and great leadership style in our organizations.
Tomas (28:28.867)
Yeah, and you know, I need to first react to the first part of your question, which is, yeah, where does this come from, right? This, I think, is like the age of the self, or if you like, know, Adam Curtis, the great British documentary maker, has a documentary called The Century of the Self, which talks about where this all starts. It starts, as often, it starts with, like, from a very good place, which is...
you know, there is this thing called progress in society and the world becomes richer and we evolve with first the enlightenment, the enlightenment and then the industrial revolution and quality of life goes up, et cetera. But what happens with the rise of humanism is in essence, you know, we replace God as a source of meaning.
with ourselves as a source of meaning, right? So I mean, when Nietzsche said God is dead, I mean, he was alluding to something that had happened 200 or 300 years before his period, but he kind of put the nail in the coffin and alluded to it like basically, if we think that all progress depends on us and that science is the most reliable and trustworthy method for getting to know the world and getting closer or, you
getting to truth in itself, all the meaning depends on ourselves. So we can also, it's very fragile because we can also take it away. It can disappear very quickly. So with that comes like, a lot of external sources of meaning, whether it's religion, even philosophy, metaphysics, community, et cetera, are replaced by this individualistic approach to meaning. And the German Korean philosopher Han has a really, really good,
Sally Clarke (she/her) (29:53.998)
Mm.
Tomas (30:14.531)
book and expression for that, which is basically, you we go from repression in the middle ages and in the pre-humanist kind of world, pre-enlightenment world, because we lived sort of like under the tyranny of, you know, serfdom and like the elites and aristocracy and, you know, most people were oppressed and slaves, et cetera, to actually the tyranny of the self or the tyranny of me, which is like,
Sally Clarke (she/her) (30:41.868)
Mm.
Tomas (30:43.937)
If you're responsible for everything, for your meaning, your career success, your happiness, et cetera, you go from repression to depression very quickly because you can only blame yourself when things don't work well, right? Even in the context in which sort of like the authenticity cult emerges, which is the American dream and you you can be anything you want if you really try to, know, well, we know if that is the case, then.
Surely at least half of the population needs to be clinically depressed because they can't be apparently they can't be what they wanted. So is it because they don't want it enough or is it because they're losers, you know, and this narrative is quite punitive. So, you know, if we bring that to the realities of today, I think. You know, the kind of the the notion that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (31:15.158)
Bye.
Tomas (31:39.247)
we are basically at mercy from our own kind of, maybe aspirational or ideal self, I think ends up being trapped in this, in the same sort of a mental schema, which is, you know, success is always dependent on our own talents and merit. If I do well in life is because I'm a genius. that's quite frankly, you know, everybody can see that.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (31:56.398)
Mm.
Tomas (32:08.409)
Too many people get too far in life because of privilege or lack or where they start in the lottery of life. But then you also punish yourself extremely when it doesn't work out. you know, I think again, it's healthier to put fewer eggs in that one basket, which is the basket of our self concept or our identity. And at least understand that the best way to kind of
develop a healthy sense of who we are is to have others participate in that development and evolution and to actually get input or let our identity be curated by others. And I think that can be achieved, but you can see how we've gone down this dark side of like, you
I was speaking to a CEO recently about the book and it's like, you know, it's like even parenting. If you are like, if you see the American parenting model, which is basically summer, I sum it up or can be boiled down to go girl. Like, you know, girl, can be like, you know, go girl. like, it's a nice thought, but why don't we spend more time actually tackling the barriers, the obstacles, the biases, the fairness that exists as opposed to brainwashing people into, you know,
Alexis Zahner (33:17.104)
Hmm. Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (33:25.774)
Mmm.
Tomas (33:34.095)
thinking that the world is fair and there are no issues. By the way, if you have a whole society or system optimized for this delusion and for self-belief rather than self-awareness, in the end, there are some benefits to society because if a million people think they can be the next Elon Musk, it's more likely that one emerges. But what happens to the 999 that don't? Do we care about them or we just leave them behind because they didn't...
Alexis Zahner (33:57.498)
Hmm.
Tomas (34:03.683)
They didn't want to do it. They didn't ask for it. They didn't truly believe in themselves. They didn't go girl.
Alexis Zahner (34:10.074)
Hmm. What's interesting about your point there as well, Thomas, is it sounds like we sort of have collectively shifted the mindset away from being of service to others to implicitly making people believe that the pursuit of success and status and, you know, grandiose impact in the world should be everyone's life goal. And I've sort of long been a believer that this really rugged individualism
will be a big part of the collapse of Western societies in my humble opinion.
Tomas (34:42.735)
I mean, you you're going into kind of deep territory now, but I think let's at least as a thought experiment, right? It's not so difficult to understand the idea, you know, that obviously there are different values and there are different cultures. Even if you look at national or regional cultures, they're obviously the result of
Alexis Zahner (34:47.162)
Yeah.
Tomas (35:13.547)
institutions that have been put in place that reflected the values of leaders over time. And I think there's always a competition between values. And even though it's like, you know, extreme and unhealthy oversimplification to talk about East versus West, there is still this notion that you have more collectivistic cultures and more individualistic cultures. Now, globalization to a large extent is about
Alexis Zahner (35:18.706)
Mm.
Tomas (35:39.595)
importing Western American cultures and values onto the East. I would say like, you you can talk now about the rise of China and the competition between the US and China, but maybe, you know, the cultural bomb that American society can launch on China and the East in the form of kind of soft power or kind of you know,
Hollywood style propaganda can actually make Eastern cultures more like American culture. So if you export enough Kim and Kanye's to the East, know, and you know, Instagram and digital narcissism are the default or the fact of culture for young people everywhere in the world. It doesn't matter. And then of course you have TikTok, which is the perfect version of that. But if that is the culture and is a culture of me,
Alexis Zahner (36:17.682)
Mm-hmm.
you
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:21.368)
Hmm.
Alexis Zahner (36:32.433)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:34.926)
Mm.
Tomas (36:38.095)
And it's a culture that anywhere in the world has persuaded people that engaging in inappropriate self-disclosure and sharing what your cat had for breakfast every morning and telling everybody that, you know, you got upgraded to business class is the way to live your life. I think, you know, it does make you miss some of the more pro-social, collectivistic features of
Sally Clarke (she/her) (36:49.687)
you
Tomas (37:05.495)
some of these other cultures, right? And so I think, yeah, I mean, in the whole, course, if you have a group where intra-group competition is so high that inter-group competition becomes impossible. And if you have societies, organizations or groups where the most narcissistic individual is put in charge of coordinating human activity,
Alexis Zahner (37:07.654)
Hmm.
Tomas (37:32.367)
those groups are not going to be led very effectively. The institutions in those societies are not going to function very well, they're going to be corrupted. you know, so it's difficult for people to understand these issues because you have to project or simulate things even as a thought experiment 50, 100 or 200 years into the future. We can talk about, you know, like and like, you know, why is Australia more successful than Argentina?
Sally Clarke (she/her) (37:35.821)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (37:36.198)
No.
Alexis Zahner (37:55.035)
Hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (38:01.185)
Mm.
Tomas (38:01.753)
They're both far away, they're both young countries, etc. It's like, the simple answer is because of the power of institutions that function well in Australia and are by and large very corrupt in Argentina.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (38:18.656)
It's so interesting, Thomas, and I think this is kind of this macro scale. We could spend hours, if not days, unpacking this with you because we both have so many thoughts around it. To kind of zoom, shift the lens a little bit, I just wanted to sort of test with you one of the definitions that I've used personally of authenticity, because it is actually one of my, I identified as one of my core values, controversially perhaps in this conversation, but the way that I characterize that is really
sort of for me, unpacking and removing layers of self-delusion. And that's for me, the seeking, the pursuit of authenticity for me. And that obviously is partly through self-reflection, but a lot of, you know, seeking feedback from outside me as well. In your opinion, am I mischaracterizing authenticity? Is there a better word I could be using for that process?
Tomas (39:08.301)
Yeah, so, you know, I think that is first a very kind of a worthwhile quest. And I think I would just call it self-knowledge. I think, you know, it's healthy to remove the layers. And I think you never get, it's like an onion, right? You peel it and you never get to, it's always another layer. But I think that we should be, we need to be realistic about
Sally Clarke (she/her) (39:30.36)
So many layers, Thomas.
Tomas (39:37.599)
what benefits that brings to others, because it can result in like you being a better person. It can result in like, to some degree now, you know, the whole sort of like mindfulness quest and meditation and the intra-psychical elements of self-discovery and identity. I think they can also become a very selfish and self-centered exercise. And I'm not saying that's the case for you, right? But I think looking outside,
is more important than looking inside. And in the book I talk about, you know, it's like one way to be true to yourself or discover who you really are, I mentioned Freudian psychoanalysis or Lacanian psychotherapy first, but you know, you can also check into an ashram in India as the Beatles did and you know, that helped experiment with drugs. You know, now a lot of bourgeois and...
Sally Clarke (she/her) (40:22.829)
Mm.
Tomas (40:28.601)
middle-class trust-eferians in the UK and the US are taking ayahuasca retreats in Costa Rica and you know and then some instances it leads to self-discovery and in others they just vomit and get on with life right so that's okay but I think it's not necessary.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (40:41.582)
And, like, agreed, and I think it's something we...
Alexis Zahner (40:43.122)
As someone who lives in Byron Bay right now, Thomas, I totally resonate with that. are full with self-discovery trust-afarians. Well, it's an interesting thing as well, because I think conceptually what gets missed with that is there's an element of self-knowledge as you've kind of used that terminology that...
Tomas (40:50.199)
Very well, so you're in the area exactly, there are these pockets exactly.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (40:51.476)
Yeah.
Alexis Zahner (41:06.83)
is really, really necessary, I think, to connecting to what's important to us, our values and those sorts of things. But we have to then integrate into community and society. And that is the other half of the equation. How do we close the gap between the person I believe myself to be and how other people receive that? And we must get that feedback and meet.
Tomas (41:16.227)
Yes.
Alexis Zahner (41:30.714)
our communities with a level of pro-social behavior and a willingness to contribute. I mean, I'm probably giving away a lot here around, you know, sort of how I feel about the world right now, but we cannot form our self-concept in solitude. It's simply not possible.
Tomas (41:46.191)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think maybe vomiting and getting on with life isn't the worst case scenario. Now and then there is a purge, know, like how you feel about the world. But yeah, mean, to go back to EQ, it's important to see both sides of it because one is like the intrapersonal and the other is the interpersonal. And I think all of the research on EQ, emotional intelligence shows that the intrapersonal one, I mean,
Alexis Zahner (41:57.413)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (42:05.718)
Mm. Yep.
Tomas (42:13.771)
Some people start with a very strong advantage there and they start with very, very strong tailwinds. know, for some people being cool headed, you know, being calm, being non-reactive and, know, being like, sort of like very phlegmatic, it's just their natural disposition. And actually they don't need to engage in all these things. For others, you know, a permanent state of sort of like,
Alexis Zahner (42:18.182)
Mm-hmm.
Tomas (42:43.567)
internal angst and neuroticism and insecurity is the norm. for sure, you know, if you're in the latter category, you will benefit from anything that is spiritually soothing, et cetera. But actually, regardless of whether you're the first or the second, regardless of your like calm, like the Dalai Lama or the Queen of England or neurotic like Woody Allen or Tony Soprano, you can actually improve how you deal with others.
and you can treat other people better. And that doesn't require finding yourself or understanding who you truly are deep down. So I think it's the interpersonal dimension of EQ that I'm promoting. And that's where I highlight this sort of like interesting and unexpected clash between deeply caring for others and behaving as the situation demands and...
exhibiting pro-social behaviors and just imposing or unleashing yourself on others. And there are big differences there. There's a neuroscientist and social psychologist at Yale University called Paul Bloom who's written this great book called Against Empathy. And he wrote Against Empathy, which seems like very controversial and click-baity, but the subtitle is The Case for Rational Compassion.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (43:45.793)
Yeah.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (43:59.534)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (44:07.662)
Mmm.
Tomas (44:07.917)
because it's easy to be nice to the people that you empathize towards, your spouse, your mom, your kids, an elderly lady who is trying to cross the roads, by the way, especially if she's part of your tribe and your culture. But if we actually rely or depend on empathy to be nice, we're not going to create a very pro-social society. So Paul Bloom says like, actually, even if you don't like the person,
that you're working with, you have to make an effort to be fake, but treat them well. And I love that notion, right? Which is also why in the third mantra, which is about, be true to your values no matter what, which is the other kind of authenticity trap, like follow your heart and values no matter what. Well, I say, it depends on what those values are, right? I mean, the world is full of examples of people who had a really toxic, devastating, destructive impact on the world. And they were
Sally Clarke (she/her) (44:44.099)
Yep.
Tomas (45:07.425)
are actually following their crooked, corrupt or psychotic values, we want less of that. But even if your values are noble or you think they are the best, it's very egocentric to not be open to other people's values. I enjoy much more talking to people who think differently from me. It's often uncomfortable and painful, but I can end up learning something and expanding my horizons.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (45:13.006)
Mm.
Tomas (45:32.599)
Look, mean, even organizations who see themselves as the beacon of liberal progressive values are a cult because they repel or reject people who don't think like them.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (45:39.874)
Mm-hmm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (45:44.81)
think this is such a powerful point for us to really draw this conversation to a conclusion, Thomas. Again, we could go on for days and weeks to sort of really go deeper into so many of the notions that you've raised with us. But I think what you've given us is a really beautiful call to action for all of us as leaders to, if we are perhaps falling into that trap of this kind of navel gazing, self-reflection, almost indulgent sort of behaviour. And, you know, I think all of us have been there at some point or other.
to start to lift our gaze, to open our minds and hearts to the horizon, really start to engage in the world around us so that we become better leaders, better humans, and leave a better legacy. Thank you so much for being with us today. Any final thoughts?
Tomas (46:25.869)
Yeah, it's a Yeah, maybe I will leave it with one final thought, which is I think probably my favorite definition or kind of an angle of authenticity, which is from my very good friend, Erminia Ibarra, who is a professor at London Business School. you know, her point is like, she asked this question, which I think is provocative, but also very, very
deep and don't think, why should we limit ourselves to our past and present self if we can also sculpt or create a future self that is different? So by definition, if who you are encompasses not just everything you did in the past and everything you do, especially naturally or spontaneously today, but all the possible selves that you could project into the future.
you need to stop playing to your strengths or go outside your nature and personality to venture into the unknown. And I think if we go back to leadership, that's how the greatest and best leaders develop and evolve, by not becoming an exaggerated version of who they already are, but actually going against their nature and sculpting or, you know, creating, translating that potential for being something else into reality.
Alexis Zahner (47:35.942)
Mm.
Alexis Zahner (47:43.568)
Mm.
Sally Clarke (she/her) (47:50.498)
Brilliant, inspiring and so beautifully put. Thank you so much for being with us here today on We Are Human Leaders, Thomas.
Alexis Zahner (47:50.684)
Thomas. Yeah.
Tomas (47:54.893)
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
